/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>13641664
If global finances were a zero sum game and wealth was never created, does that mean there were billionaire oligarch cavemen?

No, because wealth us created, not merely transferred.

Your entire premise is now dead and bobbing about on the surface of the cloudy red water.

>>13641680

>>13641680
>wealth
is a meaningless word. Try defining it.
Always remember discard all your definitions and try to see if you can substantiate them from zero. If not the definition is bullshit.

>billionaire oligarch cavemen
Meaningless words bordering on N/A you can equally ask for the color of sound. Caveman did not have money. Try restating your question.

if you don't know how to fish and i do, you produce 0 fish and i produce x fishes. if i teach you how to fish we now produce 2x fishes. money is an unit of exchange for the real value of human labor, which is only capped at the number of resources in the universe and the speed at which we can harvest and refine them (all the way down to infinitesimally small)
this is the gist of why your argument is wrong on a fundamental level, but then we get into trickier considerations due to how artificial our economy is, and the unit of exchange we use is not a store of value thanks to arbitrary money printing from private central banks
basically, you're touching on a truth for the wrong reasons and you're also deeply mistaken about most of it. there's no "change your mind" about it, you're about three or four layers under what you need to know to understand the economy. this will take you anywhere from a few months to a couple decades to assimilate, so better get going hitting the books instead of shitposting

>>13641744
Uh, oh. I see a serious case of philosophy major.
Ok, I'll bite. What is this?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-uprising-the-private-zoo-the-galleon-moored-on-a-private-lake-the-fleet-of-vintage-cars-9146886.html

>The private zoo, the galleon moored on a private lake, the fleet of vintage cars - Ukrainians left open-mouthed at the opulence of Yanukovych's country estate

Oligarchs unironically can have private lakes with galleons, private zoo, private fucking beaches, you can have a fleet of cars and literally a portfolio of castles if you wish.
>But muh meaningless word, try definiting it brainlet.
They have it, you don't. This is wealth. Can you have your private lake with a private galleon full of bitches and coke? You can't? Well I'm sorry anon here's your answer. They have wealth, you don't. Where's your private beach, bitch?

>>13641664
>Everything can be understood by a sufficiently advanced intellect.

>>13641754
>you produce 0 fish and i produce x fishes.
Fish are not produced. They are hunted. The rest of your diatribe collapses on itself even more.

>we now produce 2x fishes
No.
You hunt more fishes.
And then we get into over fishing. Because you don't magic these fish into existence you hunt them from a reservoir that has a finite capacity.

Actually nothing is produced. You don't magic anything into existence.
You either
A) Hunt/extract
B) Transform something that is dependent on the extract/hunt
C) Farm (like farming corn).

>money is an unit
And now we segway into a totally different subject.
>muh central banking nonsense conspiracy theory.
>muh economy
Disprovable, practically all of economics is astrology and propaganda all truths in it are accidental and the broken clock fallacy.

>>13641808
What is wealth?
You are not answering this.
These are things and possessions however are they wealth?

The correct wording for these things is equipment/items.

> private fucking beaches
And for them to own this everyone else must be excluded from having access to it.
See their gain is based on other peoples loss.

>>13641842
>me ugg
>me good at fish
>me get many lady uggs because fish
>ugg trade many fish for big hut
>man uggs follow ugg because fish and lady uggs
>smart ugg more wealth than stupid no-fish ugg

>>13641842
What a painfully narrow view point. You intentionally assault the vernacular of the post, rather than the concept. Everyone understands the concepts of resource exhaustion you miserable cunt, that wasn't the point of this conversation. It was on wealth generation and the underlying concepts.

>>13641744
>Fucking words, what do they mean?

Don't feel bad that you got blown out by the first reply. You're playing in the big leagues now, anon. Falling back on semantic dissonance is freshman shit though, and beneath the dignity of the frens who have gathered here today for your thread.

>>13641814
Kek

>Anyone who disagrees is stupid and did not realize it or knows this and is telling lies to scam people into thinking that everyone wins and get their money

>Market would be only zero sum if you lock market for new capital

>World would be zero sum if birth rate=0 and new welth could not be created

Now go back to you den and work on your advanced intellect lol

>>13641814
Its a trivially easy thing to understand.
For thous who clean themselves of indoctrination of the society.
Practically everyone can do it.
However indoctrination and social dogma keeps you chasing ghosts and other paranormal crap and nonsense around.

Ask and question everything.
Try reconstruction everything from zero.
Discard everything that can not be justified. Child's play and all that remains is truth and the occasional GIGO.

I'm here to say you are like superstitious little children chasing around imaginary spooks. If you never stop to question what you believe in and keep perpetually believing your dogmatic structures exist you will never understand reality.

However be warned some of reality might be unsettling to you and you will not want to accept reality because its not a comfortable thing to do.

>>13641878
You're presupposing the idea of wealth in your claim that all stock market gains result in future losses for someone else, so he does not need to define it.

Nonetheless, the world cannot be reasonably claimed to be zero-sum as otherwise the development of society would necessarily be defined as the gradual destruction of all human interaction, which is necessarily a loss to one participant individual.

>>13641664
You are right that the world is zero sum but it will only matter when we reach our potential in 'harvesting' these resources, it would only be important if our output was constant yeah then the one carrying the hot potato would be fucked but we are still in an expansion phase where every year we increase our resources output, ie: we farm better, we fish better etc you get it. But yeah it's zero sum in the end.

>>13641956
Oh ya?
What about dividends nigger

Let's say Earth is a part of this game. You take Iron from Earth. It's zero-sum as well since Iron can't be recreated(I think). Now you have Iron that you got from Earth. What if we took the whole universe. The sun powering solar panels is zero sum as well since you are taking the energy from the Sun.

I don't know where I'm going with this, my brain tired atm.

>>13642000
What about them?

>>13641900
Try one more time retard.
Fish are not money see the definition of money.

And once more you are literally ignoring the testable reality of over fishing and how we get these fish.
Try defining your magical production process.
And your Flintstones description of caveman life is nonsense or refer to anthropological analysis of pre history to substantiate your point.

>>13641912
>All words and their definitions are correct.
>no human in history was wrong about anything ever.
These are really big assumptions you have there.
Reconstruct your definition from zero.
you can not because there is not even a coherent definition of "wealth"

>>13641952
>For thous who clean themselves of indoctrination of the society.
>you are like superstitious little children chasing around imaginary spooks. If you never stop to question what you believe in and keep perpetually believing your dogmatic structures exist you will never understand reality.
>However be warned some of reality might be unsettling to you and you will not want to accept reality because its not a comfortable thing to do.

>>13642014
MaRkEt oNlY sTaY zErO gUyS

>>13642051
I literally don't understand why you're responding to me or my post

>>13642047
The amount of fedora is causing me autism

>>13641935
Your post makes no sense retard.
You introduce even more meaningless conclusions based on undefined nonsense that does not follow from its premises.

>>13642045
>I didn't WANT to be the author of a high school debate team shitpost thread, but if that is the only way to get out of here alive, so be it.

How did it come to this, anon?

>>13641956
>You're presupposing the idea of wealth
Learn to think.
if your definition is corrupt no one can be presupposing it. You are confusing yourself with your corrupt definitions.
Define wealth.

OP is right. If you boil things down even further, to energy. There is a finite amount of energy available on this planet at any one time. Energy takes multiple forms, is stored and released in multiple forms - but it IS finite.

The energetic gain of one, might lead to the energetic loss of another. Some of the methods in which this occurs are not even within our conscious understanding yet.

>>13641664
That's why you pretend to sell the exact same thing multiple times and hope the only people who notice are the ones who are also selling the exact same thing multiple times then you realise you can sell it to each other multiple times and sell loans based on those multiple sales of the same item and everyone taking those loans gets poor as you get rich.
The system works.

>>13642013
>zero-sum
I told you in the OP.
>The world is what you brainlets would call zero sum (a little more complicated then that).

>you brainlets would call zero sum
>you brainlets would call zero sum
>you brainlets would call
>you brainlets would call

>(a little more complicated then that)
>(a little more complicated then that)
>(a little more complicated then that)

>>13641664
You forget one little thing: Players can choose to break chairs in our version of the game. Some break a chair and sell the parts pretending it's a whole chair so they can get more chairs for themselves thanks to suckers buying into it. The ones more aware simply want out of this because it accelerates their own doom.

>>13641680
The value was in the land. We use up resources as we go. Either we can find new fuel in space or we burn out on earth.

>>13642064
>>13642047
>muh fedora meymey
Is it all you have retard? You humiliated yourself.

>>13642102
Then what do you call it.

>>13642065
It is possible for the individual to act
It is possible for the individual to fail or to succeed (at his own predefined ends)
It is possible for the individual to benefit from his action
The individual acts within reality
For this individual, other individuals (not presupposing other subjects) exist within reality.
The individual may act such that any part of reality is a means to his end.
For the individual, other individuals may be means to his ends.
Means have value.
Action involving other individuals may have positive value to the acting individual.
Subjects are independent.
It is not impossible for two individuals to act such that each is of benefit to the other.

>>13642085
You brainlet.
Calling me an idiot and telling me to define wealth shows that you literally could not comprehend my post: the very fact that you claim as a premise that a gain in the stock market causes a loss for another shows that you already have your own idea of wealth upon which your claims were made. If you did not possess the concept of wealth, you could not make any meaningful claim of subtraction therefrom or addition thereto, and, therefore, your entire post would be absolutely meaningless.

>>13642018
>implying wealth=money
wew lad, your semantic gymnastics are incredible. I implied nothing about sustainability. If you want to bitch about the definition of words go work for webster. Your whole world view is contrived and convoluted
>>13642000
checked

>>13642088
More or less.
Since reality itself is a finite area.
I don't wan't to go into it because we get into the concept of the world and the cosmos.

Basically we live in a place named the cosmos and we inhabit a place named the world.
For example this planet is basically the entirety of our world (I don't want to go into the fact that the end/border of the world is a gradient not a direct barrier; see satellites on different planets). however if we perfect space travel and can go to Mars for example our world has expanded to this territory of the cosmos.
We are only concerned with what is in our world not its future expansion.

Oh and the cosmos is everything that is. The cosmos is not the naive notions of the universe.

>>13641744
LOL at this faggot, thats a word for you, Faggot and its has a meaning; To be Gay.

>>13642165
You are evaluating the subjective states of individual actors from the perspective of a simultaneous subject-object (I.E. that which can observe but has none of the necessary presuppositions of the subject which therefrom follow). You have absolutely no understanding of the subject matter at hand.

>>13642056
>>13642112
Atleast I have fucked a bitch virgin

>>13642203
[we're not the same person]

>>13642187
To elaborate, your idea of the individual actor is that of a person with infinite power who owns everything and knows everything and possesses permanent awareness of the whole of potential observational being.
This is not a sound premise.

>>13642187
>>13642203
>>13642213
>>13642169
this fucking thread holy shit

>>13642213
There are 3 similar IDs lmao

>>13642150
I can show you parts of it.
For example:
Bitcoin.
Where did you get the money from it?
Answer it was given by other people who did buy it in hopes of making more money.
And this did go on until the bubble collapsed.
why did it collapse?
Because there where no (simplifying)people willing to buy it at this price.

It was simply a game of hot potato. Was it not?
The game of musical chairs. The music stopped and a lot of people did not have chairs.
Only its a little more complicated since you can chose not to get the potato or sit on your chair before the music officially stops.

Its a simple thing to understand once you know how it works.
The money you made on bitcoin was the loss of the future dudes who did buy basically a worthless asset.

It was a simple tulip mania. For thous who know this and still engage in it its basically gambling.

Want to talk about it?

>>13641744
kek you just got eternally btfo
hurr what does wealth even mean
kys

>>13642107
>Players can choose to break chairs in our version of the game. Some break a chair and sell the parts pretending it's a whole chair so they can get more chairs for themselves thanks to suckers buying into it. The ones more aware simply want out of this because it accelerates their own doom.
I need precise examples of what you are talking about.
Because if my suspicion is correct I can agree to this. Others scamming other people into buying worthless things to make money before the bubble collapses.
Is this your argument?

>>13642156
What are you even talking about? What is this Ayn Rand shit?
>define wealth shows that you
I have no definition of wealth.
This is literally you right now
>You can not say god does not exist!
>Even talking about GOD you must accept GOD is 34563% real!!!!111111ONEONEOENONE
I asked you for a definition and you keep on evading.
who was it that did talk about fish?
Fish are a resource, food for humans, animals.
They are hunted most of the time or farmed.

All human activity can be devised into
A) Hunt/extract
B) Transform something that is dependent on the extract/hunt
C) Farm (like farming corn).

What is this wealth you keep on talking about? It it things? Items? Say what is and what is not wealth? Give a list of things that are not wealth.

>>13642187
Nonsense schizo post.

Copypasta:

Why do nocoiners exist? I am talking about the ones who are aware of crypto. Buying 2019 BTC ATL and selling at 2019 ATH would have locked in more than 2X gains. That is a bit more than an indexed mutual fund stock would make in a whole decade. With crypto it was just demonstrated that optimally it could happen in the same year, neigh half year, not even!

My guess is they want to stay poor. Non crypto markets are boring and stale and won't get you to make it in any decent time..

>>13642243
>>13642256
>>13642165
>>13642112
>>13642102
>>13642085
>>13642065
>>13642045
>>13642018
>>13641952
>>13641878
>>13641842
>>13641744
>>13641664
>unironically creating these posts on a Yugoslavian spider milking forum
>being deluded enough to actually believe you're enlightening the masses
You do realize that this thread and all your pitiful attempts at philosophizing the markets will wash away into nothingness, just like all your future years spent in moms basement as you indolently wallow and bitch about the fucking definition of wealth

>>13642243
Except Bitcoin actually offers benefits(no borders, anonimous, fast compared to bank transfers) over traditional fiat money, although those benefits are more for criminal purposes, which means you "could" potentially profit from it without other peoples loss. If you buy in at $1000 and there are more criminals using it every year, then Bitcoin rises and you profit, while criminals/users benefit from Bitcoins utility. This of course is not the case anymore since there are probably a lot more speculators trying to buy and sell higher than there are actual users using Bitcoin.

>>13642327
I want to interact with idiots.
It amuses me.
Its a good way to check myself.
Who knows maybe one of you has some interesting insight on the subject.
Give me your best definition of wealth.

>>13642256
Works but i was thinking more general. Take war - it is the biggest asset destruction where only a few make it out positive. Most are just suckers losing what little they have. The overall netgain is always negative but it continues because the top can safely make gains even if it overall causes more losses. On smaller scale you have shit like chemical factories pumping their crap unfiltered into the rivers. Plebs are first happy about jobs but then it poisons the sea and the overall netgain turns negative.

In essence while resource can't grow bigger we can absolutely accelerate their destruction and this frequently occurs because everyone is only concerned about whether it's a positive netgain for themself and not the whole. You could call it a bubble too - they get a moment of euphoria until the factory closes and they got no jobs nor fishing/farming left to do on their now poisoned land.

>>13642337
The problem is normies play by gov rules and goverments across the world made crypto unusable for daily use with their regulations.

>>13642347
>I want to interact with idiots.
>It amuses me.
>Its a good way to check myself.
Holy shit your ego is completely untethered. The most insidious ego is one which believes itself to have transcended the ego.

wealth
/welTH/
noun
an abundance of valuable possessions or money.
"he used his wealth to bribe officials"
synonyms: affluence, prosperity, opulence, riches, means, substance, luxury, well-being, plenty, deep pockets; More
the state of being rich; material prosperity.
"some people buy boats and cars to display their wealth"
plentiful supplies of a particular resource.
"the country's mineral wealth"


Why is this not good enough for you? If I am good at getting the things it does not mean you would have gotten them otherwise. Is it not possible that without exceptional people doing the things to get us the things that we wouldn't have any of those things at all? It's not zero sum, get your head out your ass anon

>>13642313
So it's obvious that you're not even operating at four levels below me.
God, you're pathetic.
And you claim to be smart.

>>13641664
Yeah, since the beginning of the stock markets there has always been a fixed sum of money that is just changing hands. We have the same amount of money in the stock market as we had 90 years ago. Absolutely no new money has been injected, and no money has ever left the market. It's completely static.

Are you clinically incapacitated or just economically illiterate?

>>13641842
Dude, fish get magiced into existance. They are not a finite resource, they fucking breed out of the energy that the sun gives us. Sunlight is the energy in that keeps us all alive; organic life is all about harvesting that sunlight efficiently.

>>13641664
you smartass we can discuss wether the wealth can be created, but it sure as hell can be destroyed
> holding fiat is negative sum game
> holding blighted detroit house as well
thats why we are pumping funds into shitcoins senpai

>>13641744
That's a yikes

>>13642243
>IT WAS TULIPS
Holy shit. I've seen this posted here many many times, continue believing what you want. Crypto is the future.

>>13641664
Imagine having no clue how economies work.

The world IS zero sum how can you guys be so retarded? let's simply this. money represents units of labor. if you exchange money (or goods that were produced with the same "amount" of labor) with another guy, you both gained nothing and lost nothing, you only exchanged resources of equivalent value. to make gains you need to get more units of labor that you are giving away, which means that someone has to forfeit his labor for no gain, or exchange his labor for nothing, so they lost the time and energy they worked for for nothing. it is their loss and your gain.

>>13641664
skimmed thru your posts to see if u said anything interesting or useful.