/biz/ - Business & Finance

What the heck is a vanguard group or index fund

BASED INDEX FUNDS

BUY AND NEVER SELL, RISE UP INVESTORS

>>12464173
Rest in peace
F

RIP to Jack. If only more understood the merits of owning a ton of VOO or VTSAX

why own VOO when you can own VTSAX

one of the most important investors of our times.
he is the reason everyone and their mother buys nothing but index funds these days.

it will be interesting to see how far the index-only investing trend goes over the next couple of decades (with current complaints about the death of price discovery etc.)

>>12464173
F my truth-telling Gentile

>>12464241
Biggest issue is shareholders’ vigilance over corporate governance and remuneration. Now you have to please only handful of institutional investors with gala annual resort parties and hookers instead of making millions of retail investors happy

>>12464233
That’s true

Indexies BTFO. Ad-hoc stock picking vindicated as an investment strategy.

>>12464378
DELET THIS

Led the greatest transfer of wealth away from the rich and to the rest of us. I honestly couldn't think of a person more deserving of an F

F

>>12464199
some bullshit that crypto is replacing

Mad respect for Mr. Bogle.

>>12464173
F

May your index funds in heaven continue to outperform the average mutual fund.

Buy the Index

>>12464229
>If only more understood the merits of owning a ton of VOO or VTSAX

Yeah. Although Boyle himself was concerned that the popularity of index funds would damage their performance. If everybody does it, the market’s global behavior will change.

Is Bogle a jew, or /based/ enemy of jews?

>>12464581
most people arent smart enough to go full index funds

they still try to beat the markets and always some section of investors will do so, so index funds will always outperform those people and take their money

based index fund bros, taking money from individual equities investors, feels good man

>>12464582
I wonder about that too.
F or S?

>>12464173
SELL SELL SELL
GLOBAL DEPRESSION 2.0 INCOMING
SELL FUCKING EVERYTHING
30 YEARS LONG DEPRESSION WITH -99% DROP IN EVERYTHING
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

F

>>12464582
Enemy of the jews. He could have been another piece of shit hedge expensive fund manager that just fails and steals money from people but he chose to help the average joe

>>12464632
You mean edward jones advisors?

F

>>12464173
Major F

F

This guy was a hero who did more for the average person trying to invest than anyone. He couldve been a mega billionaire but instead ran index funds he invented at cost saving the average investor a ton of money.

Also, almost everyone here should be using index funds.

>>12464503
This

Jack bogle a great lad. F

Holy shit this is actually depressing. Bogle was one of the very few ethical people in the finance world

F

gonna buy more VTI tmrw

>>12464199
Capped. This is as bad as the guy who didn't understand buy/sell orders.

>>12464199
A Jew Ponzi scheme

>>12464582
>>12464604
>>12464852

Which one is, you niggers?

>>12464581
>>12464603
It's a bizarre paradox. Passive investing is a better strategy than active investing. Yet passive can only exist because of active otherwise there won't be any price discovery and the markets would remain permanently stagnant. It's a system to leech off rich idiots as long as rich idiots still exist.

Do you retards realize how big this shit is? he is like Alexander the great, all his "kingdom" (index funds) is going to get broken down to bits by greedy motherfuckers and everyone will sell, its OGRE

>>12464582
He wad most certainly based and also extremely redpilled, F.

>>12464884
which is fine, also it leeches off medium well off idiots. People making 60-100k a year think they are smart enough to beat the markets, endup giving away 5%+ or more annually basically straight to index funds

this is why you can make 40k a year and end up with many times more assets when your 40 years old than some dumbass that made 100k for 2 decades at the age of 40

>>12464603
You sped, investors are taking the index-investors money. Im in at 1.5 & when it goes to 4 dollars, the reweighting will bring it to 5 or 5.50. Then i and everyone else sells, and then we buy the reweighting bags.

The market fund might return OK, but as a personal investor, you beat that & you're taking everyone elses money.

>>12464909
He's been retired for decades (there's an age limit in Vanguard). The company is owned by the funds themselves. Did you not think Bogle wasn't aware of his own mortality? He structured the company in a way that not even himself can hand over to plutocrats.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/110515/who-are-owners-vanguard-group.asp

>>12464943
You know how many dozen managers out there beat the market by atleast 10% a year on average?
Mai, buffett, lynch, soros, greenblatt, druckenmiller, icahn. "Efficient market".
I love government brainwashing.

>>12464503

Indeed.

F

I work at Vanguard, he really is a stand up guy. He would come to the galley for lunch a lot, especially burger day, and just sit with you randomly for lunch. I had a burger once with him last summer. I have his last two books, autographed even.

>>12465064
That's an amazing story. Must have been loved within the company.

>>12465064
It's depressing that the depression era kids are dying out. They sure knew the value of resources.

>>12465064
based

>>12464973
what are you talking about? 1.5, 4, 5, 5.50?

>>12465064
Any other nice stories about working at vanguard, based bro?

>>12465287
Index reweighting. So if a 1b market cap goes to 3b for whatever reason, the index has to buy it up and reweight it, adding another few hundred million. Indexes do not efficiently buy stocks and this is why they barely return the money supply inflation. Indexing is the real reason for stock market volatility. Small changes in earnings / fundamentals warp excessively when the reweighting buys/sells to compensate.

Should I buy the vanguard dividend fund if I can only afford to invest in one index fund?

>>12465321
No. Hold cash until the next cycle begins- ill attach a pic.

>>12465320
and so why does everyone who buys SPY or QQQ or VTSAX or VOO always always make it to retirement if they are willing to hold? Yes people can possibly do better but everyone literally only lives once, there is value in the guarantee of index funds becoming worth waht you need them to if you buy enough for long enough

>>12465321
This one image is how you can become a good investor.

>>12465354
Indexing is fine- So is paying tax, buying expensive depreciating assets, and not passing wealth onto your kids and family. But there are more preferrable alternatives & 10% isn't gonna get most people there.

>>12465321
There's no magic answer in which fund you should choose but for the common investor Bogle himself seemed to heavily advocate in his books for investments in Total Stock Market index funds. You won't beat the market obviously. But you will consistently ride the long-term gains of every sector of the market and because of the extremely cheap expense ratio, none of your profit will be wasted going to greedy investment managers

>>12465355
Thanks anon. I had to Google CAPE but understand it now

>>12465450
No worries- here's the original paper if you want to learn more: https://www.starcapital.de/fileadmin/user_upload/files/publikationen/2014_02_CAPE_Predicting_Stock_Market_Returns.pdf

>>12465375
i buy index funds and pay the taxes im required, im not a tax evader

i will pass on wealth to my family and kids because i make so much more than i spend so i invest 4 figures monthly, and i also dont buy any expensive liabilities, which is what depreciating assets are, because those are a meme. I will probably drive a used Civic forever, theres no reason to ever spend 10x the money on a new car when its just used to get elsewhere

>>12465294
Partnership and end of year bonuses are pretty damn good. Though I work as a developer so cant really show much on the business side.

>>12465120
Yeah, everyone loved the guy. Funny story about him with some coworkers and anime: turns out, he is a mech pilot in full metal panic and pilots Vanguard, the mech.

>>12465583
You don't have to justify your decisions to me. I align with them and didn't challenge them. But it is worth chasing better returns if you have the time or are young and curious.

>>12465585
Hey can you pass on a note to the front-end team to redesign the fucking website. Probably the biggest thing Vanguard is lacking against its competitors and it astounds me because I know a lot of smart computer scientists work there.

>>12465614
Ha, I agree. It's pretty bad. I assume it's on the list of changes because it runs on an older development stack, but that sounds like a very expensive budget of a project.

>>12465613
Well I do think with a basic sense of TA I can position and swing trade well, I've done it before, I just dont have enough capital to really make it worth my time plus any potential losses is basically me losing out on index funds I could have been accumulating

I am young and curious with the time but I dont have the capital or cash flow to waste much money

>>12465739
TA is a joke- Notice how the big fundies, like all-time best never use it? TA works simply because of a bull market. Your average holding time is average upswing in the market- Try TA in a bear market when trillions in liquidity is drying up. Won't ever work. Fundamental value and Growth at Reasonable Price is best way to make money.

>>12465784
Ive never lived through a bear market unless we are currently in one, and as such all I've done so far is keep buying index funds every month no matter what. All my purchases from what the last like 4 months are down, but so what this will all be worth way more in 15 years when I need access to the cash.

It seems like I could use my time more efficiently somehow with the markets but as you said there are limitations to TA like no huge pros use it so I just take the next best option - if index funds ever collapse then I wont be needing any USD anyways, so might as well buy them

unironically based and redpilled
f

>>12465064
based bogleheads. buying a bag of VFIAX tomorrow in his honor. biz doesn't deserve low fee passive index funds

F. Such a shame, did so much for the average american. Should be more well known than Buffet.

>>12465875
This late cycle, just wait for a good bear market. PE's can drop to 5 or 6 on solid banks, and many compabies sell for below their assets. Some you're just paying for net cash on the balance sheet- My family loves recessions. Most wealthy people do- They liquidate a few years before ans go on margin when stocks hit net cash prices. Any lower and takeovers happen. 10% downside risk, 400% upside risk in normal market thats hammered like the past two bear markets. Dad doubled cash in a year on bank shares. We're liquidating big & getting credit lines ready.

>move to cheap area of the country and buy cheap house for $100k
>put $500k in Vanguard High Yield Dividend ETF (VYM) paying 3.5%
>collect $17.5k in dividends each year which is more than enough to live on in cheap area with paid off house
>don't have to worry about inflation because VYM share price and dividends rise along with inflation
Combine that $17.5k in dividends with optional NEETbucks and it's way more than enough to live on. This is how you make it anons. You don't need millions and millions of dollars to become NEET.

>>12466278
how do i leverage? i want to buy the next recession dip with 3x etf like tqqq but smart people say that's a bad idea.

>>12464503
The Chad Bogle

>>12465929
VYM outperforms S&P 500 and pays higher dividend yield

>>12466278
what do you mean by net cash prices? As in when stock price x outstanding shares = cash on hand a company has? By PEs dropping that low on banks are you just saying you mostly dabble with bank shares, or is there something unique about them relative to other sectors of the market? BAC is at 15% annually the past 10 years, C at 6.3%, then SPY at 14%. Doesnt seem unique to me so is banks just an example your using?

Is this also why AAPL presumably has a floor share price at a relatively high amount because they have SO much cash on hand?

>>12464199
some boomer investment shit

>>12466278
>>12466451
I've just been buying SPY and QQQ with a bit of QLD and SSO for 6 months now, yeah Ill be down heaps if we keep going bear but im at least practicing my buy and hold habits. I probably cant time a recession like you can, so my next best step as far as I can tell is to just keep buying as we go down and as we go up, then when we reach new all time highs in say 2022 I'll be up heaps due to sick dollar cost averaging, and then everything after that is pure returns

I have iron hands because I trust in myself and the markets

>>12466449
lol thks div boomer but not what i'm looking for

>>12464173
F

>>12466423
It is a good idea, but you're doing it wrong. Refinance your mortgage, or take a margin loan on a non-leveraged etf/index fund. 3x daily ones decay over time.

>>12465064
based

>>12466476
There's also a mutual fund version VHDYX if that's what you want. The ETF has lower expense ratio though.

>>12466443
Bogle was the first Satoshi

>>12466492
that sounds too risky for me. fuck i feel like the decay would be worth it since the market can only go up.
>>12466505
bruh i don't want dividend. it's literally equivalent to selling the stock. it's not free money lol

>>12465001
The majority of fund managers are losing though.

>>12464503
>Led the greatest transfer of wealth away from the rich and to the rest of us.

Someone want to explain this one?

>>12466532
just google it yourself about how index fund came to be

>>12466451
I'm down about 30% this year. Not a tad stressed. The stocks have reached their true floor(buybacks, stakeholders increasing stakes at current prices aggressively). Bank shares are an example- If they survive the fall, they should be fine in a bull market. And yes Apple is a good example of the cash example. So net cash on the books per share = share price; you're buying a business for free.

Read peter lynch's books:
One up on wall streat
Beating the street

He explains in terms anyone can understand what good investing really is. Don't worry about intelligent investor/security analysis until youve read lynch's books. Alchemy of finance by soros is a fucking fantastic read if you have the time to digest it.

You rotate between value & growth stocks in a bear and bull market, the idea is to rotate before everyone else does but not stupidly early. Time in market matters the most- I might get a 50% return, any longer than 2 years for that and I'll be torturing myself. If you nag a bargain and get a 20% return in a few months, you know you're going well.

Index until you can pick well- papertrade beforehand and check prices daily- you should have a buy/sell range for the current performance, prospects and position of a stock factoring in all variables possible.

Index funds work but they’re so fucking boring

>>12466558
>down about 30% this year. Not a tad stressed
lmao that's not normal bro

>>12465321

Shareholder yield is superior to dividend yield in a sense

Just buy the index

Dividend funds sound comforting but it washes out to the same result

>>12466574
Yeah, can't I just max my 401k and have fun with the rest of it?

>>12466523
Majority. Majority should be analysts- Lynch is the best example I can give. His run at fidelity proves certain styles of investing can outperform consistently within certain economic environments. Buffett is shit in a bull market, and FANG will get raped if there is a balance sheet recession.

Good funds at the moment would be the net short ones and long value stocks. They'll be positive over the next 3 years.

Too many funds exist today and many genuinely smart people don't take in more information than they did yesterday- I.e ignoring government policy, macro changes and structural progression towards big government.

Trends earn you money. Most people forget this.

>>12466581
It is such a good opportunity I am 100% in it. In the process of being sold 50%-100% to a partner on the asset level or asian companies wanting to replicate the business model. Media report can't discount billions off realestate assets on a false accusation, and all roads lead to me roughly doubling my money within 3 months.

>tfw someone had to die for /biz/ to actually talk about the stock market

>>12466596
96% of fund managers do not beat the market in 1 year. And the 4% that do, it becomes even harder for them. Over a 5 year period, roughly 99.5% of fund managers do not outperform the passively managed funds. You said it yourself, you're down 30%.

>>12466558
how do you feel about people taking on leveraged ETFs, 2x mostly, if they are willing to take on more volatility in exchange for more returns? Im young enough to handle the market cycles, and stuff like SSO and QLD have made it through 1 recession already so I feel they are a reasonable buy and hold candidate. 3x I dont touch due to them not proving themselves through a recession, but a mix of 1x and 2x seems ideal.

Theres no mathematical REASON why SPY and QQQ exist as they are besides thats just how index funsd were first started, so theres nothing that says '1x leverage is the best' so why cant some other leverage be better? 1.5 or 2x perhaps? thats my thinking

>>12466684
On the one trade. My 2 month trade balances it to a minor loss of a few %. The year being 6 months in. I'll be up net 100% by late March- with 3 months left in the year.

>>12466725
They get the job done but I don't persobally use them. Might aswell just refinance your home at 3.5% or whatever rate you get, rather than paying the 6+% on a leveraged fund. Same results short term but ling term that 2.5% compounds.

>>12466752
im not sure i understand your point. How expensive after movement do you think leveraged ETFs are? last 10 years annually:

QQQ 19.8%
QLD 36.6%
SPY 14.1%
SSO 24.7%

They are 3-4% less than their 2x daily goal over the long term which is fine, because 36 > 19 and 24 > 14.....why pay 4% on a mortgage to gain more 14.1% when you can just buy 24.7%?

Past performance doesnt the future etc etc

>>12465001
they can't do it anymore though and Druckenmiller has said himself it's tougher out there these days

>>12466522
>bruh i don't want dividend. it's literally equivalent to selling the stock. it's not free money lol
I went back and checked and it turns out VFIAX/SPY actually outperformed VYM so maybe your way is better after all. If capital gains >>> dividends then capital gains is the way to go if you can hold shares through dips. Dividend ETFs are still nice though because you can receive income without having to sell shares and they continue to be paid out even if share prices go down, assuming the ETF is well diversified with healthy companies that don't cut their dividends much in a downturn.

>>12466867
No you're missing my point-
Borrow enough for some SPY from your mortgage at 3.5% rather than the 6 or 6.5% that the fund borrows at.

BRKA borrows at 3% through bonds because it is a long-lasting, good returning company. The fund on the other hand only has the shares as collateral- And there is a high chance they'll have to liquidate if the shares drop a large amount. Mortgage won't get called on the other hand unless you're in bad financial shape.


The expe

>>12465001
Numerous studies have proven the passive/index investing is far better for the vast majority of people.

>>12466889
Exactly- but Jamie mai did it in the early 00's till the gfc- so did michael burry-
"Burry quickly earned extraordinary profits for his investors. According to the author Michael Lewis, "in his first full year, 2001, the S&P 500 fell 11.88 percent. Scion was up 55 percent. The next year, the S&P 500 fell again, by 22.1 percent, and yet Scion was up again: 16 percent. The next year, 2003, the stock market finally turned around and rose 28.69 percent, but Mike Burry beat it again—his investments rose by 50 percent. By the end of 2004, Mike Burry was managing $600 million and turning money away."

>>12466943
Cool. You do you, I'll have enough to retire in 10 years.

>>12466943
Lynch's returns.

>>12464173
Was he related to Harsha Bhogle?

>>12464173
I never knew the man therefore I'm uncertain about whether I want to type F or S.

i feel more confident in crypto knowing that /biz bros are not only composed of brainlets putting 100% of their stack in crypto but are true investors who at least have a healthy respect for John Bogle.

The man did a lot for us small time wagecucks so we'd all at least have a shot of making it

>>12466961
Flip a hundred coins, if you get 96+ heads then you win

>>12466985
What fund does Lynch manage now? Also, post results from 1963(funds inception) to 2018

>>12467170
Lynch didn't manage it then... He is 75 now.

>>12467130
& if you stop breathing that'd be gud.

>>12467311
He also didnt manage it from 1990 on wards. You never owned the fund in >>12466985?

>>12464173
F
just bought $1k in his honor

>>12467075
This
price is down 70% brainlets are still buying
we have room to grow

>>12466409
>put $500k ???

>>12466409
>you don’t need millions to live as a NEET
>but you do need $600k
>and you have to live on $17k a year
>in the middle of fucking nowhere, probably

No thanks

>>12466522
>the market can only go up.

This is the real risk of index funds. What if there is a paradigm shift and that stops being true? It’s a classic black swan event. There is some risk of that happening in our lifetimes. But, probably not more than 5% or so.

>>12467971
if index funds ever fail, then you wont need USD anyways.

So who fucking cares? Either you make fat stacks, or your money is worthless and you'll need guns and ammo and all that redneck meme shit

just invest and assume society doesnt fully collapse

>>12464173
F

A great man.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/16/in-his-last-major-interview-jack-bogle-gave-a-warning-about-this-bull-market.html

Holy fuck.

Prophetic, if you ask me

>>12464173
OH NO NO NO
F

I'm really upset. I was planning on meeting him and now he's dead. Almost on the verge of tears.

Requiescat In Pace, Saint Jack.

Based and indexpilled.
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ngmi
>>12464199
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>>12466558

>>12468790
Praise be to his soul. I will pray for him. Pic related

>>12468918
Fucking based.

>>12464173
Rest in peace.
I still didn't have the opportunity to read his books, but I read his philosophy about investing and knew about his contributions in ETF. He was a respectable man who tried to improve the lives of common people and to make everyone understand some concepts of finance.
However it's a shame that not only this thread isn't a sticky, but I had to scroll down so much in order to find it. This are the moments where I'm a bit disappointed in /biz/.

>>12467949
>live as a NEET
there are your key words, anon-kun, he's trying to live like a NEET, not like an Instagram model that goes on sex tourism expeditions every month

>>12464173
F

>>12464173
Don't know what an index fund is but it sounds like this guy was having fun. Go get em tiger.

>>12470325
>>12464199
All you need to know.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started
The cryptofags that fester on this containment board should closely read this one.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Behavioral_pitfalls

F

Most of my net worth is in VTSAX.

>>12471109
>tfw trucked