/biz/ - Business & Finance

HAHAHA YOUR BRAIN IS WRON

TRY OUT XMR

THATS TRUE GOLD

>>12405558
Gold is being used less and less industrially so if it dropped to that value, it would be closer to zero than where it stands now.

>>12405558
Neither is fiat money

>>12405558
No shit nigger thats why bitcoin blew everyones fucking faces off. For thousands of years we've been assuming shit about money that turned out to be wrong.

Liberty, Freedom, and Mobility

https://youtu.be/FeNYjYA2lVg

>>12405573
This is why Peter shiff says bitcoin is worthless and gold is money because he uses the “industrial usage” Incase monetary incentive SoV is shifted. But close to zero? Gold has unbelievable physical properties and would be the preferred metal but carries a “monetary SoV premium” because it fulfills every category

>>12405589
You’re telling me that money can come out of thin air? Usually money comes from a commodity that has industrial or widespread usage demand first then migrates into a SoV —> MoE —> UoA

>>12405569
Gold is portable and divisible albeit less convienent but definitely doable to transport 1 million in gold. Across borders maybe not so I see your point but gold is divisible 1/10th coins are popular.

XMR is very interesting. I don’t think the tail emission will even be inflationary I think it’ll be disinflationary at some point but the way money works usually is the hardest money, scarcity, bankrupts all other currencies. This is why maximalist say it’s a winner take all deal because this is what history has shown.

Can money exist where it’s only utilized as a monetary premium? This is the million dollar question.

>>12405573
It’s only being used less because it’s “monetary premium” has risen. This is what I was trying to say. The more Gold is used as a SoV the less industrial utility it’ll have. BUT if SoV begins to fade and price drops the industrial demand is extremely high and will scoop up all the cheap gold driving up the price again

>>12405558
>gold
>portable
I fucking HATE goldfaggots

>>12405876
And divisible? "Yeah you want a 1/10th of my bullion sure mate just lemme get my hacksaw?"

I swear goldbugs are shitting up /biz/ at an ath rate.

>>12405876
>>12405896
A stablecoin backed by gold is the solution

>>12405947
Lol this is so stupid

>>12405558
Its intrinsically valuable because you can buy things with it

>>12405951
jescs christ seriously. fucking shiny rock bugs are so fucking retarded.

>>12405876
>>12405896
>>12405995
Fucking retards I’m trying to figure out how to btfo of rockfags but you can’t see that. This is the reason why people don’t understand. I’m trying to work out how something goes from have no intrinsic value to carrying a 100% monetary premium.

>>12406067
Dont hate the shitposter, hate the 'chan

>>12405558
There is no such thing as intrinsic value. All value is ultimately subjective. That is, something is valuable if you think it is. What makes 1kg of gold more valuable than 1kg of another equally rare material? The fact that gold has applications that people want, so it is somewhat useful indirectly (e.g., electronics) is one aspect, but other materials do as well. The primary aspect is the fact that a large number of people think it has value by itself (they can keep it and probably resell it at a similar or higher price later).

>>12405558
Bitcoin isn't gold. It isn't a store of value. It's the money and payment processor of the internet. It allows for micro payments and all kinds of new businesses and monetization strategies.

This of course requires actually scaling and not having 1MB blocks forever.

>>12405558
>intrinsic value
>gold yes
are you high?

>>12405558
Volatility and liquidity.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/volatility.asp
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/liquidity.asp

Don't be retarded, anon. This is what really matters for an investor. If the market crashes the only way to really save your money is to own fixed assets. You cannot do anything other than that don't fool yourself.

>>12405558
>Bitcoin
>Portable
>Durable

Nope. You can only move a copy of your private key, not Bitcoin. Bitcoin can't exist without its network, which can't move in the same way gold and silver can be moved. The network is also very fragile. If it goes down, then Bitcoin would no longer exist.

>>12406143
>what is secondary layer scalability

>>12405558
>Essentially, the item must be rare
Gold and silver are in infinite supply in the universe. All we need is a means of extracting/creating it. Bitcoin will NEVER go past a supply of 21 million.

>>12405573
>long term
>2011
...

>>12405558

Wouldn't the intrinsic value of Bitcoin be derived from mining costs or am I off base with that?

>>12406139
Yes there is lol. If prices of both gold and bitcoin went to 0$ you would still be able to do something with your gold and absolutely nothing with bitcoin. That's the point at the very least you can pick up your gold and throw it at a pidgeon or idk or you know make jewelry and look pretty. That's why it will always have some use even if value is completely subjective (which i agree with btw).

>>12405569
Why is btc not fungible but xmr is. You have to turn Monero into btc before cashing out right?

>>12407750
>cashing out

No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

>>12405558
The intrisict value of gold is like 0.01x of it's current price, if people stopped using it as an investment you'd be as good as broke.

>>12405558

Please, explain the intrinsic value of gold. Now to clarify intrinsic value meaning INDEPENDENT of subjective value from historical or cultural needs.

>>12405581
Yes it is, it's the sole currency of the largest and most powerful economy in the world. That's its intrinsic value.

I've made this argument a lot before, I came up with it when someone argued that neither gold or btc has intrinsic value cause you cant eat it etc. Made me think

In order to have a functioning civilisation, you need a money. What are you going to use as money? Corn? Cattle? No.
If you find an object that is: DURABLE, FUNGIBLE, PORTABLE, DIVISBLE...
Then that object immediately has intrinsic value, because of its unique use case - MONEY.

It is the best thing that can be used as money, therefore it gains its intrinsic value through that incredibly important utility. You cant have a real civilisation without money, at least not a free one.

So gold DOES have intrinsic value because it is the absolute best at being money, better than anything else. You could say "copper or silver" but both of those tarnish, and are less rare, meaning you need a lot more of it to make a purchase (less portable). You could say "platinum or palladium" but they look too much like silver. Gold has a distinctive colour which helps its case.

So why do I think BITCOIN also has intrinsic value? Because Gold has been the best form of money for thousands of years, for reasons I have just explained, UNTIL bitcoin came along.

Now we have bitcoin, and it does everything gold does, usually much more efficiently. (Presuming the protocol doesnt fail, which im starting to believe it will in the future, which makes me kinda sad)

I have never bought into the industrial gold utility argument, for the same reason this guy said. Its complete BS
>>12405573

TL;DR Gold and Bitcoin have intrinsic value, as their Utility is money. Nothing else can be as good as being money.
MONEY IS THE UTILITY. (therefore deriving its value)

>>12405558
scarcity creates what you mislabel as "intrinsic value".
"intrinsic value" is just an empty hull that contains the statement "i think this thing *has* value." i guarantee you will fail at defining what intrinsic specifically means here, because the only thing that gives gold, silver etc. value is their scarcity - the very same characteristic that bitcoin has.

>>12405748

>>12405569
>Gold
>Scarce

>>12406139
Bump. Coming back later

>>12407744
I can do something with dirt too doesnt make it valuable.

>>12406139
Bump. Coming back later

>>12407744
Also if you werent a retard then you would see bitcoins intrinsic value comes from its trustless nature and userbase. People have trust issues especially since the advent of the internet. Trustless services will definitly be in high demand in the future. Nobody trusts scum like the bankers.

>>12405558
yeah, paper money has no intristic value

>>12405558
wow this chart opened my eyes

>>12407744
btc can still be used as a ledger or a signature verifying machine
eth is still even more valuable
you are retarded if you really don't understand the beauty of the decentralized ledger and how it blows the fuck out every financial institution on the fucking planet

>>12406143
shut the fuck up roger
people are just going to use theter because it's 1-1 to fiat
your little project is a a fucking disaster and it will die out

>>12407994
Interesting take

Reading through the thread it looks like money doesn’t need to have “intrinsic value” but rather just the properties of sound money i.e. durable, scarce, fungible, divisible, portable. It seems that characteristics of being unconfiscatable and trustless give it value. The difficulty of obtaining the certian good also seems to be important. This meaning that the good not only needs to be scarce but also difficult to find.

Basically never before in the history of the world has a phenomenon such as bitcoin occurred. It could easily go down in history as the greatest invention of all time.

>>12408289
The question is when will deep crust mining become a reality?
>>12408026
The definition held by mainstream economists is intrinsic value is derived from the basic functionality the commodity has. I’m trying to figure out why exactly gold bugs claim that bitcoin doesn’t have intrinsic value when gold itself is valued based on it’s intrinsic value either. If people are buying gold because they believe “it will always be worth something” then they are buying into something highly overvalued and should wait for it to be worth “that something”. You see what I mean? This is why Peter shiffs arguments make zero sense.

>>12409071
Meant that gold is NOT valuable based on its intrinsic value rather it’s monetary premium so if someone says that they’re buying gold bc it’ll “always be worth something” why not wait to buy it when it’s worth “that something” instead of overpaying for it today.

>>12408703
This

Sorry lads, in my store I only accept iron leaves for payment and nothing else.

>>12405589
kek
just bought 100k

>>12405558
it has intrinsic value since it can't be counterfeit you stupid muppet

>>12409224
W-w-what about bronze leaves?

>>12407744
If the price of gold went to $0 we'd have reached a post-scarcity economy (or apocalypse), in the former case I don't care about the price of ANYTHING and in the latter I'm dead.

Having the other properties of currency makes it intrinsically valuable you dumb twat

>>12408703
This seems correct. Basically the intrinsic value lies in the physical and economic properties of the good seeing that these characteristics must be present first for it to be considered money then be adopted which drives up the premium.
>>12407994
I agree the utility as hard money is the intrinsic value

>>12409292
This

So in conclusion to the thread is Aristotle wrong? He was right in the way that the good must be intrinsically valuable but wrong in the sense that the previous properties he listed, that is, durable, portable, scarcity are what drives the goods intrinsic value to rise i.e, carry a monetary premium

>>12409292
This + the fact that it already has adoption

>>12408072
Kek

>>12408289
>core of the earth
>the earth is not a donut
remember - these are the people giving you investment advice, lol

>>12405748
>BUT if SoV begins to fade and price drops the industrial demand is extremely high and will scoop up all the cheap gold

There is absolutely nothing that would guarantee this. You can artificially create "gold" from copper that has the same properties.

>>12405947
>back by gold
>get gold for shitcoin
>keep gold

>>12405558
>gold is portable
>gold is divisible

>>12406681
>Bitcoin can't exist without its network, which can't move in the same way gold and silver can be moved. The network is also very fragile. If it goes down, then Bitcoin would no longer exist.

Are you high? Must be some good stuff!

>>12405558
HOW STUPID ALL YOU ARE?
>HOW FUCKING STUPID ALL YOU ARE?
IT'S TRANSACTION MEDIUM
IT'S TRANSACTION SERVICE WHICH REWARDS THOSE WHO PROCESS THEM
YOU HAVE TO BUY FROM PROCESSORS TO BE ABLE TO TRANSACT
>HOW FUCKING STUPID ALL YOU ARE?
BTC fucked the network by limiting itself. You got cucked by blockstream. And you know it.