/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>12098007
we are right
you are wrong

it is over statist

>>12098007
second only to the faggot that made this post.

fuck off statist nigger >>12098007

>>12098007

it could work if you had a benevolent dictatorship preventing people from getting together and making all those exploitative laws again
but so could a lot of things

Property owner = authoritarian government for that property

>>12098007
Not as much as communists

>>12098007
Have you seen the other anarcho ideologies? Ancaps might be a meme but they're probably less retarded than the others. But yes Ancaps are fucking idiots

>>12098510

Lookin a bit authoritarian there hoppe

>>12098558

>>12098534
i disagree, anarchists are all retarded yes but at least the lefty anarchists have consistent principles, ancaps claim to be anti-authoritarian then essentially advocate medieval feudalism/warlordism

>>12098570
I used to be admin of hoppean snake memes and friends with the admin who actually made all the memes

>>12098007
Ancap is for Autists who are still politically correct and non whites who can't handle race realism

Any Ancap who isn't retarded ends up alt-right/trad right/fashy
but most have already come over

it's literally autistic to think that only your own plot of land matters and that you aren't affected by demographic replacement

>>12098007
Yeah. Simply because it requires people to allow a perfectly free market even if their product isn’t the best and just accept losing. As opposed to hiring a team of Mercs to kill any competition or a thousand other ways they could prevent the market from actually being free.

The ultimate redpill is paleolibertarianism.
AKA conservative values, little to no government and without any progressive bullshit

>>12098786
bullshit

the ultimate red pill is to vote for whatever benefits you the most at any given time, and to completely disregard everyone else and the wider economy.

if youre poor? vote for socialist gibmedats.
if youre rich? vote for tax cuts and low regulations
thats it in a nutshell, many other situations to be in of course.

>>12098822
crypto gives cheat codes to the rich

>>12098822
No you fucking faggot, that is exactly why democracy is bad, it provokes societal fracture.
Old farts vote for pensions and that fucks young people, immigrants vote against the natives, women vote against men.. that is why the globalists are usually democrats (I'm not talking about the democratic party here).

Fuck mob rule, 51% of the population is not entitled to rule over the other 49%

>>12098835
It does not, what gives cheat codes to the rich is the capacity to force other people to use their currency.
Crypto enables competition betwwen currencies and currencies systems. We are returning to what the world was before Jacob Rothschild privatized the bank of england.
In the old times people could use sea shells, salt or even dog shit as currency, Rotschild cajoled the government and since then it has become treason to use anything but the British Pound. Multiply and apply that to the whole world and you get to the system crypto is trying to destroy.

>>12098007
Peak retardation is probably Anarcho communists. I still cant even begin to understand how fucking retarded.... Its like a rabbit hole of retardation.

Imagine believing in spooks.

>>12098786
>muh values
found the retard

>>12098007
Taxation is theft

>understands the need of a state
>understands that the state should not have too much power
>understands that citizen's opinions is what matter to go forward
>understands that humans are selfish by nature
>understands that to earn something then actions have to be taken at an individual level
>understands that security vs freedom laws should be subject to citizen consensus on case by case basis
>understands the value of scientific progress

anon what's the word that includes all those politic/economic ideas?

>>12098007
Just edgy teens who want to rebel against the "system". If u want to live in a lawless state go to africa or south america or the middle east. Like it or not having a competent military and functioning government allows for civility and development

>>12098906
Are you sure I'm the retard here you nihilist faggot? Why haven't you killed yourself already and spared us all of your constant sadboy bullshit.
Go choke on a dick

>>12098931
Communism you authoritarian niggerlover

>>12098941
You do realize that 90% of africa is fucked because of totalitarian socialist dictatorships and general low IQ and the whole of south america is filled with orwellian governments that are borderline plutocracies right?

Lemme guess, you never left your state and yet you think you know shit because of a few youtube videos and articles you read online

>>12098953
isn't communist the contrary of what I just said ? since I talked about low power state + citizen's opinion

>>12098740
>altreicht
>WANTING TO BE CONTROLLED BY OTHER MEN

>>12098822
the thing is that welfare will only benefit you temporarily while being able to get rich will be a lasting benefit and also you can have voluntarily funded social safety nets

also what are ethics and you are a faggot if you are a violent

>>12098007
Not as dumb as ancoms or commies in general, but yes

>>12098985
>any power for the state

>>12098953
communism = groupthink + down syndrome

>>12098845
>Fuck mob rule, 51% of the population is not entitled to rule over the other 49%

this unironically.. good thing that the individual will always find a way and all communism did is create the biggest black markets in the world

>>12098941
>edgy teens
>reee cuck yourself like me or you are "immature"

ok cuck

>imagine giving up so much that you start resenting people who want to be free

sad

extra sad

with salt on top.. wagie


also you are a leftist

>>12099070

>>12098915
it's actually raep.. meme this on twitter

>>12098521
this is a problem

>>12099090
check out blocknet.. it's a dex with bitinex's orderbook.. there's a good chance that by the time they try to go after the exchanges there will be real dex solutions

also this meme is bretty gud

>>12098740
You are correct but I'm trying to find a way to have crypto and no taxes in a fascist/traditionalist society. Is there a way to have icos fund white imperialism of resources in foreign lands? Idk but maybe something to work with there.

>>12098007
Yes. They are spoiled children and brainlets who blame the state for their shortcomings. About the same level of retardation as communists.

>>12099126
will do, see ya anon.

>>12098558
If you aren't a fascist at this point I don't know what to tell you.

>>12099133
well the crypto boom will happen during the dying phase of the current society so that's not an issue imo
my ideal would be a swiss like model
with 0% CGT

>>12099142
sorry i don't like other men telling me what to do.. i know you luv that though

>>12099168
>I'm a stronk indvidual
I swear this is just the economic version of "I'm a strong independent woman". You are not an individual, you are a part of a unit, like it or not.

>>12099168
I am not a brainlet and will be towards the upper rung of the hierarchy. You on the other hand will be fed to the dogs.

>>12098007
im a minarchist and even i find it impossible. they are smarter than anocms or stalinists however, so not they are not peak retardation

>>12098007
From a game theory perspective, anarchy equilibrium is equivalent to the best possible planned society over time. Look up "price of anarchy"

>>12098007
many of us go through that phase on our journey towards truth. anyone one who is past his teenage/ young adult years and is still into that is lost

>>12098953
based and redpilled

>>12099239
literal fucking nonsense.. women are traditionally subservient so that's what you are buttmad about and should move to saudi while the indie woman meme is dumb because they should be promoting individualism instead of feminism but you don't understand that because YOU ARE A KEK AND WANT TO BE *****CONTROLLED***** BY SOMEONE ELSE

>>12099240
meanwhile you're a NEET or possibly a low tier wagie and you are GUARANTEED to be doing WHAT SOMEONE ELSE TELLS YOU TO DO

>>12099294
>minarchist

aren't we all?.. the whole point is to have as little authoritarian violence as possible.. ancaps just acknowledge that eventually it should be zero

and btw every republic turned into an authoritarian shithole empire at some point so we need to find a solution to that

>>12099340
>everyone who is not anarchist is communist

is that peak retardation people were talking about earlier?

>>12099355
>women are traditionally subservient
You got that ass-backwards. Men are traditionally able to make women subservient to men without 'culture' helping them.

>>12099366
That's because freedom and democracy are fundamentally incompatible

>>12099366
>confusing cause and effect so badly
It's like republics create shitholes that have to be centrally managed to not collapse.

>>12099366
capitalism literally requires authoritarian violence to even exist

>>12099355
Kek, sure I do Mr. Shekelberg's bidding for now, but not for much longer. I will beat the system within the next 10 years, guaranteed. I follow the absolute bleeding edge of this space and up quietly stacking up wagebucks and waiting. Making it is just step one, though.

>>12099425
what is castle doctrine and tactical mcnukes? god made man.. samuel colt made him equal.. edward teller made it inadvisable to attacc your neighbor

>>12099402
>hurr we gotta be authoritarian to limit authoritarianism

umm sweety then the careful management becomes selfish and corrupt bureaucracy.. we need less and less government and more and more innovation and decentralization

>>12099395
republics are representative?? so you're saying a non democratic dictatorship then?? so shouldnt we have a kind-of "benevolent dictator" garden of eden that breeds them.. aka ancapism where the owners of property become the "dictators" and there is a market because only the benevolent ones will get peopel moving to their property to work there

>>12099552
irony? the whole point IS YOU LIKE BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO.. that is why you worship your master el trumpo and faketoshi and when they tell you that you must pay taxes and that you are not allowed to buy anything else besides BScoin it makes your butthole wet

>>12098007
>Are Ancaps pretty much peak retardation?
Yes. Look at the first post in this thread, too retarded to even give you an argument.

If ancap has been disproved by anything, it's crypto. Look at how badly fucked up this financial system got without regulations... it turned into a cluster fuck of market manipulation so that a tiny financial elite could dominate the clueless masses who think crypto is helping them escape exactly the trap they've fallen into.

>>12099589
Trump is not /myguy/ you fucking cuck. Neither is CSW. You know what happens when you assume, right?

>>12098510
Well this is the stupidest argument I've ever seen.

Ancap will be a meme until smart contracts are adopted.

>>12099571
>castle doctrine
Literally state policy

>>12099239
Mostly I'm part of a family and I am willing to sacrifice some of my money for my family. The farther it goes, the less I'm willing to pay. Currently I'm paying about 50% for random people's welfare. Nigga pls

>>12098007
Close but some flavor of Bolshevik is the worst

>>12099630
yeah but the fact they ratified that into law proves the viability of defending your own property

>>12099608
then who do you look up to.. all statist bootlickers are sycophantic about some guy.. stalin?? is he yourguy?? youre a tankie huh?

>>12099604
>If ancap has been disproved by anything, it's crypto. Look at how badly fucked up this financial system got without regulations... it turned into a cluster fuck of market manipulation so that a tiny financial elite could dominate the clueless masses who think crypto is helping them escape exactly the trap they've fallen into.

you realize there is actually a special dedicated torture chamber in hell for cuck traitors like you?

>ree i lost my money on bitmex SHUT IT DOWN!!!!! reeee

fuck you cuck.. you should be grateful that you are even able to fucking trade... normaally you would have to fill out boomer registration and any of the manpulation techniques you fall for like spoofiing or stop hunting or whatever the fuck can be played against and turned into AN EDGE for the little trader you fuciking cuck bootlicking ungrateful tom arnold yellowbellied COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!!

>reee deregulation caused the 2008 collapse

MEANWHILE QE IS CAUSING THE NEXT ONE AND IT WAS FUCIKING THE CENTRALIZED CONTROL OF THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM THAT LED TO BAD DEBT AND WHEN INVESTORS ARE CODDLED BY REGULATORS THEY STOP LEARNING HOW TO MAKE INVESTMENT DECEISIONS ON THEIR OWN AND ASSUME ANYTHING LEGAL IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDUCATION > REGULATION

>>12099604
>please regulators.. require a 25k account size to stop me from "gambling" my pathetic wagie mcjob mom's allowance "life savings"

>reeeee who shorted it soros soros soros pound pound pound REeeee

>>12098786
500 BC values amirite

>>12098007
Ancaps are people who would rather not read so that their pure personal thoughts don't get corrupted by those pesky books.

>>12099768
>yeah but the fact they ratified that into law proves the viability of defending your own property
>literally defending the state where it suits him

>>12098876
anarcho-communism seems like an oxymoron, but it makes sense if you think about it like this: anarchy is the strategy, communism is the goal. So they use anarchy to tear down the current social structures and when they are in power, they ditch the anarcho part and graduate into just being regular commie scum.

>>12099937
THAT FUCKING LAW GIVES PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND THEIR PROPERTY

>HURR DURR LOOK AT THIS HYPOCRITICAL ANCAP DEFENDING "FREE SPEECH" REeeeeee

equivalent

>>12099814
>you realize there is actually a special dedicated torture chamber in hell for cuck traitors like you?
Not an argument.
>>ree i lost my money on bitmex SHUT IT DOWN!!!!! reeee
Never used Bitmex, and I cashed out at a profit months ago.
>reee deregulation caused the 2008 collapse
Pretending like I said things I didn't isn't an argument either.

>>12099829
Why are you people unable to provide arguments? Are either of you even old enough to vote?

>>12099985
that's not really what they're going for, ancoms basically what would normally be called a state but with consensus decision making, or worker councils, or lots of horizontalism.

Also, lol at that meme, it takes quite a lot to make the dems look like the good guys but you somehow pulled it off.

Minarchism aka right-libertarianism is goat

Prove me wrong

>>12100052
Because your little commie utopia that only exists in the fantasy world created by your dysfunctional pea brain has been successfully implemented every time your commie idols have gotten into power.

Day of the rope can't come soon enough.

>>12100142
Unironically pic related. You can add minarchism to the third row with libertarianism.

>>12099768
fascist anon here on home computer. I'd tell you but then I'd be leaking my get rich ticket before buying in so you'll just have to wait on that.

>>12100148
I'm not an anarchist, anon, I don't believe in utopias. I believe in harsh necessity, no matter how ugly it can be. If our future is doomed to endless bureaucracy, it's better than one characterized by complete economic and ecological collapse.

Also, lol at that meme, Russians overwhelmingly wished the USSR did not collapse, especially older citizens. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/29/in-russia-nostalgia-for-soviet-union-and-positive-feelings-about-stalin/

>>12100049
>fuck you cuck.. you should be grateful that you are even able to fucking trade... normaally you would have to fill out boomer registration and any of the manpulation techniques you fall for like spoofiing or stop hunting or whatever the fuck can be played against and turned into AN EDGE for the little trader you fuciking cuck bootlicking ungrateful tom arnold yellowbellied COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!!

>MEANWHILE QE IS CAUSING THE NEXT ONE AND IT WAS FUCIKING THE CENTRALIZED CONTROL OF THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM THAT LED TO BAD DEBT AND WHEN INVESTORS ARE CODDLED BY REGULATORS THEY STOP LEARNING HOW TO MAKE INVESTMENT DECEISIONS ON THEIR OWN AND ASSUME ANYTHING LEGAL IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>EDUCATION > REGULATION

>>12100049
also if you could get your dick away from sucking your smug dick then you would realize that part of my argument was that you are essentially a leftist and you are blaming FREEDOM for shit you don't like even though there is plenty of fucking shit that is awesome that wouldn't be around if the government's dick was up our crypto ass

and DARWINISM.. it's your responsibility to discern whether something is a good investment.. BUYER BEWARE.. and there are trusted gurus emerging who you can look towards for advice rather than insider trading SEC and their cronies that manipulate markets EVEN MORE.. CHECK OUT THE SWISSIE LOSING ITS PEG JUST TO FUCK FOREX TRADERS OR HOW SOROS BET AGAINST THE POUND

>>12098941
HOLY SHIT I SWEAR TO GOD IVE READ THIS BEFORE THINKING WTF I SAW THIS BEFORE I THINK THIS MY 3RD TIME READING THIS EXACT SAME POST 4CHANNEL IS FILLED WITH CIAFUCKS

>>12098521
nothing authoritarian in private property rules.

>>12100203
>fascism
>literally derived form the term faggot
>literally wanting to be controlled by el duce fuhrer
>literally a socialist

dont ever call anyone a cuck ever again

>>12100049
also look how fucked up ((((((Regulated(TM))))))))) pharmaceuticals... meanwhile you can reliably get pure quality drugs online and you can know which ones are gud by looking at third party reviews

>>12098941
>africa or south america or the middle east

WHAT DO THEY HAVE IN COMMON?!?!?!

>SOMALIA
>MIDDLE EAST
>SOUTH AMERICA

FUCKED UP BY THE MILITARY PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX

ALL THE WORST MOST DEADLY TORTUOUS THINGS DONE BY HUMANS WERE LEGALLY SANCTIONED BY (((((STATE))))) GOVERNMENTS

+1 for steinbeck's attempt at marxist satire of toxic
masculinity being cool af and relevant

>>12100276
kek, something tells me that you will NOT make it Anon. What coins do you hold?

>>12100289
Somalia is a lawless shithole run by warlords. It's also your libertarian utopia so maybe you should go take a visit.

>>12100273
What enforces private property rules?

>>12100273
The practical definition of a state is private property over land and peoples living on it.

>>12100345
no u tier

>>12100354
strawman bingo and the whole point is to work towards having as little authoritarian violence as possible.. no shit creating a power vaccuum in a society corrupted by statism could be bad but as we approach post scarcity and planetary colonization statism in general will be viewed like racism or communism or fascism

>>12100345
also

>hodling

bahahahhahaahahahahaha

>>12100376

>post scarcity
>planetary colonization

muh star trek movies!

Are literally all communists idiots?

>>12098007
this post violated the NAP prepare to be recreationally nuked

>>12098007

What do you base that on? Read any actual Ancap literature? Or just assume that anything that isn't written by Marx is shit, because like any good religion you don't read heresy? That's always been the giveaway to me as to the intellectual bankruptcy of the Left. Most AnCaps I know have read a decent amount of Marx, Bookchin, Zizek etc. Yet communists probably couldn't name (let alone have read) anyone other than Ayn Rand (who isn't even an AnCap). Disgraceful.

why is communism even discussed ? post scarcity is in like 100k years if there's no accident, topkek

>>12100363
Same thing that enforces self-ownership.

>>12100593
Which is?

>>12100528
Marx addressed the ancap of his time, Stirner. His ideology was just confirmation of his general rule.

>>12100635
Stirner wasn't ancap.

>>12100635
You're doing stirner a great disservice anon.

>>12100528
I've read some Mises, Hayek, Nozick and Friedman. Out of them, only Hayek had any brains on them, and even then he's become outdated.

>>12100617
Society's necessity to set certain rules that avoid conflict.

>>12100656
>no reading comprehension
typical ancap

>>12100617

Dunno, how is that enforced in a stateless society? Oh yeah, the recognition of the group & your ability to defend your claims (both in physical terms and rational argument). Literally the same thing Kropotkin talks about in "mutual aid". Lacking a monopoly on the use of violence by a single class doesn't mean people magically fail to have the ability to defend their rights. The right to bear arms more or less.

>Inb4 "What stops people from banding together and raiding others, while repeating the cycle"?

What stops it in Leftist thought?

>>12100680
Property in state of nature is defined by ones ability to defend it, even in the animal kingdom. The fact that a plot of land is 'yours' is only possible because big daddy government protects it from whomever you deem unwanted. It is not your property, it is basically leased with a fancy name stamped on that agreement so to trick you into triggering natural hormonal pathways related to true ownership.

>>12098007
the only thing these stupid "ancap" cringelords, like roger ver and jeff berwick, want is to not pay taxes. they're rich already so of course they would benefit from a "free society"

>>12100703
>What stops it in Leftist thought?
That's not the point. The point is that ancaps want to head mini authoritarian states with the pretense of doing the exact opposite.

>>12100736
People want to prosper, in order to have prosperity you need a society that is not in constant conflict over scarce resources.

Property needs to be defended by people in the same sense self-ownership needs to be defended by people, because, without it, we would have constant conflict over scarce resources.

To say that the fact that we have property is thanks to the government would be to say that you're not my slave thanks to the government.

>>12100736

Please, explain the distinction between "true ownership" & private property.

Also, I should say >>>/pol/. /biz/ might be a mainly Ancap board (for obvious reasons), but this isn't really what it's about.

Ancaps will get Gassed alongside the commies

>>12100703
Not all leftists are anarchists. And I know for some left wing market anarchists, the plan is just to have constant interpersonal violence to prevent accumulation. Ancoms, however, do believe in maintaining specific institutions that organize groups, that they don't fight amongst each other is just a function of the fact that they're not competing with one another.

>>12100768
But this is exactly the point, slavery was once a kind of property that was defended people. We, as a group, have the power to redefine the contours of property, including to exclude bourgeoisie property.

>>12100810
>But this is exactly the point, slavery was once a kind of property that was defended people. We, as a group, have the power to redefine the contours of property, including to exclude bourgeoisie property.

Slavery was outlawed because it was generating conflicts.

Redefining the contours of property would generate conflict (as proven by every previous attempt).

Our moral values advance but ultimately we spin around the idea of self-ownership, who, if not you, own your body?

And from that principle is where we get private property, because who, if not the person who first makes use of a resource/creates value, has a better claim on it?

Capitalism has allowed humanity to prosper because we respected those principles enough. A minimum set of rules upon which greatness can be created.

>>12100509
actually it's the opposite of star trek you faggot

there's shit like seasteading etc etc.. nation states are going to get progressively subverted more and more till people just start escaping and eventually that will be fucking space you fucking NOOB

but yeah for now the government should be slashed by 99 percent and the united states and europe and russia balkanized heavily and government methodically reduced as much as possible

>>12100509
imagine in 2008 you would be the person saying peer to peer currency is a pipe dream and weed will never be legal

>>12100168
monarchist belongs to the same category as sjw, antifa etc...

>>12100234
>>12100276
>>12100260
If you can't type a like a normal, educated human being, I'm not even going to bother with you. Try again.

>>12100764

Oh, but that is the entire point. AnSocs also want to run little mini-authoritarian states (effectively). AnCaps simply don't kid themselves that some small scale hierarchy will not inevitably emerge, so let it be from merit not coercion, and in as decentralised and small-scale way as possible. And the choices of organisational structure are not necessarily between "Authoritarian Government" and "For-Profit multinational Mega-corporation", which is what you seem to think AnCaps are fans of. The structure of those "city states" is likely to be closer to a co-op (the citizen-workers are direct owners) or mutuals (the citizen-customers are direct owners), or some fusion of the 2. Hell, it'd probably be unique to each "mini-state" as you call them. And without violent coercion to keep people from moving around, you just find one with a socio-economic structure you like. Honestly, it's not that different from AnSoc solutions, it just recognises that we already have a mechanism for bottom-up organisation via the free market & money, which also channels human greed and ambition in a healthier direction than, say, conquest by force. It'd be creating a free market of societies basically. And on top of all that, AnCaps aren't utopians - of course there'd be issues with it, especially the ever present danger of new governments trying to form. So yeah, please explain how Left Libertarians solve the issue differently.

>>12100736
>what are private security forces for 600

>>12100842
>Capitalism has allowed humanity to prosper because we respected those principles enough
>muh ideology

>>12100764
you would get to choose which community you want to live with.. there would be a free market of property owners and cities and shit and there would be incentive to attract people to your city

>>12100751
>they just dont want to pay taxes
leftist cuck detected

>>>>>>>>/leftypol/

>>12100168
>all ideologies are adequate to the same degree thorough time
The whole point of Marx was to refute this very notion

>>12100842
Slavery was not outlawed because of moral values, it was outlawed because the champions of its system, the southern aristocracy, was defeated by northern industrial capitalism. It was a conflict that was postponned many times, but in the end it could not be avoided.

Self ownership has been used to justify rousseauian democracy just as well as private property, that it's a value is just that, it's an idea. An idea born from the necessity of a historical moment, not the other way around.

I also see how you're careful to use the phrase "first" when it comes to value creation. This way you can play a coy genealogy like the predecessors of social contract theory, who justified monarchy by linking the king's authority all the way back to Adam. And yes, it's just as absurd. Today, workers, empirically, scientifically, produce the value, make use of the resources, but they do not own what they produce.

>Capitalism has allowed humanity to prosper because we respected those principles enough. A minimum set of rules upon which greatness can be created.
You're better off not treating capital like God.

>>12099366
you need government in law and language. the government must define things with language and tell everyone if they want law support in a conflict, they will ahve to use the defined language. without it, i can tell you i can sell you a orange drink. someone else takes that drink. but its actually my piss. he gets angry at me and think i fooled him. but i just say: i call my piss orange drink. with a defined langauge the governemnt could charge the piss seller for fraud, without it it cant.

>>12100678

Of course he's outdated. As is Marx with his distinctly 19th century industrial revolution era model of society as factory workers and owners. It's science, not religion, the ideas of the past need to be updated, doesn't make them irrelevant.

>>12100876
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/reddit/

>>12100354
>somalia
>libertarian utopia

they never heard of natural rigths so no, fuck off.

>>12100887
funny cause youre reading this on the most powerful means of production in human history which was made available second hand for dirt cheap to the point homeless people have computers and smart phones

also chicoms have the worst working conditions unironically but at the same time computers would be cheap af in a true free market because of automation and 600 bucks for a used computer would still be a great deal and they cost literally fortunes in the soviet union and you had to wait 10 years for one or get admitted to an elite school

>>12100909
dogma.. you have no right to demand compensation if someone defrauds you.. all you can do is make sure not to do business with that person again otherwise you violate the NAP which is a naturalistic law you fucking violent commie scum nigger

>>12100899
far from it. i dont like paying tax for welfare or things like that, i do understand and accept paying tax for infrastructure and military

>>12100894
So it rests on the assumption that the authoritarian mini-state owners will be ... benevolent.

>>12100911
Your poor parents.

>>12100931
you also forgot constant military prison industrial complex intervention and CIA funded "rebel forces" like afghanistan

>>12100938
>funny cause youre reading this on the most powerful means of production in human history which was made available second hand for dirt cheap to the point homeless people have computers and smart phones
A fellow Marxist. Nice to hear people getting educated on the topics.

>>12100910
Marx's insights, however, are far more valuable in many ways than Hayeks precisely because, in taking up the mantel of classical political economy through his thorough critique on those premises, he forced bourgeois economists to throw out many of their best ideas because they had been thus tainted with the title of marxism.

All of the work down with the rate of profit, surplus value, and the labor theory of value in the years since has been advanced primarily by marxian economists, and a handful of Saffrian and left ricardians.

Whereas Hayek's most notable achievement was with regard to prices as coordinating mechanisms, and was quickly overshadowed by modern information theory.

>>12100943
>accept paying tax for infrastructure and military
so to create terrorists and lockheed jerbs and cagies for non violent wagies

>>12100946
nah but the ones that aren't wont attract many "customers"

>>12100948
>your poor gf.. oh wait

>>12099604
source

>>12098822
that's actually an atomic grade bluepill
voting against your longterm interests is extremely dumb because unless you're a complete loser, the advantages you get from the gibs are minimal compared to the potential you're giving up
it's like shorting an asymmetrical investment

>>12100909

Yeah, not true at all anon. Look into the history of free judges in the US for an example. Societies without authoritarian government manage to have language, laws, traditions etc. The delusion that a ruling class (with some magical right to hold authority) is required to get human society to function is where a lot of issues come from. In your example, sucks that you drank the piss - but once that word gets around he won't do any more business. Plus a suit for damages, which if he doesn't honour leads to being excluded from all transactions in that community. Don't want to go into the whole concept here, just do some reading up on the whole thing. A big part of why we love shitcoins & smart contracts is that they assist in solving this very problem.

>>12100971
>so to create terrorists and lockheed jerbs and cagies for non violent wagies
do you think this world lives in peace and harmony with each other? fucking idiot

Only kikes and foreign governments benefit from a country enacting an individualist zeitgeist.

>>12100956
the point is that no more do you need farms or factories to have means of production or be a part of the intelligentsia.. you have the ability to create digital warez and sell them as well as program 3d printed robots mine natural resources and grow your own hydroponic drugs and food

soo karl would be the biggest capitalist ever in today's world if he stuck to his original goals and if you think computers aren't means of production there are entire reddit commie communities that use computers in their argument about seizing means of production

also marx WAS a capitalist bourgeoisie and same with engel and lenin and trotsky.. they actually were all kooky jewish rich trust fund babbys that wanted to rebel against their fathers ((((((not saying there is anything intrinsically fucked up about judaism except it breeds kooky socialist spoiled brats like occasional cortex who is also jewish and came from a 100k median income rich kid town and new york jew architect father))))))

they all have the same kooky look in their eyes and also lenin only escaped siberia because he was literally royalty

>>12100984
do you think we should be prancing around the world being pigu coppers creating resentment instead of just focusing on DEFENSE?

fucking retard

>>12098822

Yeah, no. I'm pretty sure this is one issue we agree with the commies on. Consistently being a short sighted fucktard is permissible, but not a good idea to base governance off of it. It's why the world is such a mess, and why democracy leads to tyranny in the end. Collective decision making by means other than asking morons to rule on matters they know nothing about is kinda what this argument is all about.

>>12100995
can you elaborate what that means?

>>12100995
Ancaps are just mollycoddled NEETs who never had to think why things happen because some mother-figure took care of all of it with him never-the-wiser. The very same NEET lived by unearned handout for a unsavory amount of time.
Now he thinks that the whole world should work in the same manner.

>>12100960
funny because marx literally admitted that leftists were terrorists

>>12101030
>... is permissible ...
>muh idological perscriptions

>>12101034
funny cause that's literally the story of socialists

meanwhile ANCAPS are ready to fight and die and WORK and create in order to maintain their standard of living and freedom

nice try media matters

>>12100908
>Slavery was not outlawed because of moral values, it was outlawed because the champions of its system, the southern aristocracy, was defeated by northern industrial capitalism. It was a conflict that was postponned many times, but in the end it could not be avoided.

It surges not from moral principles but by self-interest, you would not want to be a slave, thus you should not possess slaves. Law is nothing but a huge set of compromises we take in order to be confident that our neighbors will be ruled by those same compromises.

>that it's a value is just that, it's an idea

It's not only an idea, the mere fact that we're arguing here and not killing each other demonstrates that we embrace self-ownership, you are entitled to your opinion and we may disagree, but ultimately, because we believe in each other's self ownership, we leave it at that.

Not believing in self-ownership would morally enable any repercussion your self ownership suffers, you should not enjoy something you don't believe in.

>who justified monarchy by linking the king's authority all the way back to Adam

That monarch would need to demonstrate a peaceful acquisition of that property, otherwise he would be morally exposed to the same treatment that he laid down upon others. That's why most, if not all, monarchies and states are immoral.

>Today, workers, empirically, scientifically, produce the value, make use of the resources, but they do not own what they produce

That's not true, they own the labor, but the resources are acquired previously by someone else. They are able to trade their labor as they see fit but they have no right over the resources if they didn't acquire them.

>You're better off not treating capital like God.

Not sure what this implies, or how I treated capital like God.

>>12101032
Anti-Nationalism and Consumerism

>>12101053
You actually sound like a NEET, I work and I think kikes and the other 50% of wealthy ruining the West should get the bullet to set an example that we should never be anti-nationalist ever fucking again.

>>12101034
i bet you've never even had your freedom threatened before.. you would be the first kid to cry for your mommy in bootcamp when they take away your nintendo DS

it's mostly kids that were spoiled rotten that take FREEDOM for granted and think that BEING CONTROLLED BY SOMEONE ELSE is going to be fun or a replacement for their absent fathers and youve never had to struggle and DEFEND your freedom

>>12101040
>when you run out of things to post

>>12101087
>Individualist saying he's about freedom and not being controlled
>gets controlled by kikes who remove his freedom
You can't make this up, Amerimutts are hilarious.

>>12100960
Labor theory of value is by definition wrong and has been proved so multiple times (consider changing preferences and spot prices). It's also retarded that you claim information theory has overshadowed anything without actually referencing what aspect of information theory you mean. I've seen your posts on quite a few threads and every time it's pseudointellectual bullshit and asspulls that I doubt you even understand. I do thank you for reminding me to always filter dumbass tripfags tho.

>>12101053
>no u
nice

>>12100851
Imagine basing your entire political ideology on a hypothetical science fiction scenario that doesn't exist and might not exist even 100 years from now.

>>12101072
you call that indivdualist zeitgeist??

so youre saying that kikes want people to be obsessed with themselves and buy a bunch of useless shit and reject being part of something bigger??

you realize how GAY it is to care about where another man is from or what he looks like or what race??? Why would you care about what a MAN looks like with regards to if you want to ASSOCIATE with him unless you want to fuck him??? True redpill is that IDEAS and common interests are what bring people together not fucking imaginary lines and irrational arbitrary physical traits.

>>12101026
defense doesnt require tax money? what if one of our allies needs help?

>>12101040
There's nothing wrong with this faggot, Marx also wants the 2nd Amendment so the poor can mass-murder the wealthy when they ruin the country like what sorely needs to happen in America right now. Keep worshiping your kosher individualist consumerism though.

>>12101119
>kikes get goyim to destroy all of their in-groups
>kikes maintain their own in-groups
>every other foreign in-group moves in and begins looting and dismantling the country
>B-B-B-BUT AT LEAST I CAN IDENTIFY AS A SEXUALITY, IDEOLOGY OR WITH A PRODUCT
>I'M FREE
Shut up goytoy.

>>12101105
you've been subverted

you unironically think that to be individualist is to be controlled

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE KGB INFECTED MODERN ACADEMICS WITH IN THE 60S AND TURNED THE HIPPIE MOVEMENT INTO A LEFTIST MOVEMENT!

FUCKING VIDEO RELATED
https://youtu.be/bX3EZCVj2XA

>REEEEEEE WE MUST LIBERATE THE INDIVIDUAL BY TAKING AWAY HIS INDIVIDUAL LIBERTIES

JUST LIKE A LEFTIST YOU ARE BEING RADICALLY SELF CONTRADICTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>12101140
Where's the refutation you kike controlled faggot, the kikes subverted you to be individualist. Enjoy your fantasy world while entities like China take advantage of you and then you end up under some variety of National Socialism anyway, except under an in-group that hates you.

>>12100983
>>12100938

well ok. next time i wont call my piss orange drink, but i will call poison orange drink. after killing someone with it, i shouldnt be charged, but the person who died just should stop doing business with me.

>>12101121
they get btfo or you give them a nuke or two

>>12101122
lenin took the guns right after the revolution though.. and also mass murdering the wealthy is categorically UNETHICAL

OUR ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS OWNERSHIP BASED!!!!!!! THERE ARE ENTIRE UNIVERSE SIMULATIONS RUNNING ON ALIEN COMPUTERS AND GUESS WHO CONTROLS THOSE COMPUTERS?!?!? THE FUCKING PASSWORD HOLDER?!?!?!

ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME THAT IF I BUILD A SPESS STATION AND PROGRAM THE COMPUTERS ONLY TO OBEY MY PASSWORD OR SELF DESTRUCT I SHOULD HAVE MY STATION LIBERATED BY SOME GROUP OF FAGGY LEFTIST SPACE BUTT PIRATES?!??!?!?!??!?!

>>12100845
Shoot yourself into space or the ocean faggot, whichever of these 2 utopian ancapistans you prefer.

>>12101150
>You don't want to associate with niggers and white liberals? What are you, an individualist????

First thing kikes want is for societies to associate forcefully, otherwise they cannot introduce their ideas.

>>12101130
THEY ARE ONLY ABLE TO "DISMANTLE" THE COUNTRY BECAUSE OF STATISM AND THAT CAN BE USED AGAINST THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALSO NOT EVERY FUCKING INDIVIDUALIST IS SOME FEMINIST NIGGER YOU FAGGOT!!!!!!!!! BUT DOING DRUGS IS HELLA FUN AND YOU ARE ONLY JEALOUS BECAUSE YOU WERENT INVITED TO PARTIES WHEN YOU WERE IN HIGHSCHOOL YOU PATHETIC NECKBEARD VIRGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>12100960

Yeah, while I'd love to unpack that, that's just not something I could be bothered doing in detail here and now in between shitposting. Suffice it to say that IMO the Labour theory of value is massively flawed (as it doesn't take quality, aesthetics, scarcity, the burden of precience etc into account, among innumerable other factors) & is what has held back the Left for over a century. So what you see as advances, I see as weaknesses & distractions. It's the very root of why central planning fails & market mechanisms tend to still outperform it. The reason those concepts were developed by the Left further was to try and cover over the flawed, unipolar thinking that led to the pricing problem, which was better addressed by Adam Smith already anyway. And on top of all that is the conflation of a (mainly bourgeoisie ironically enough) conception of labour relations as universally coercive, simply to justify the political agenda.

>>12101066
>It surges not from moral principles but by self-interest
No, this is what you're still not getting. It was, throughout this whole process, still in the Southern Aristocracy's self interest to preserve slavery. Hence, why the whole war was fought. There was no rational sitting around and himming and hawing about what was in who's self interest. It was from self interest that the conflict was created. And in the end, it was not compromise, either that brought about the emancipation proclamation, but war-time necessity.

>Not believing in self-ownership would morally enable any repercussion your self ownership suffers, you should not enjoy something you don't believe in.
My point was that believing in self-ownership leads to any multitude of mutually contradictory positions depending on the internal logic one favors.

>That monarch would need to demonstrate a peaceful acquisition of that property
The divine right of kings was exactly that demonstration.

>>Today, workers, empirically, scientifically, produce the value, make use of the resources, but they do not own what they produce
>That's not true, they own the labor, but the resources are acquired previously by someone else. They are able to trade their labor as they see fit but they have no right over the resources if they didn't acquire them.
You don't seem to be realizing you're agreeing with me here. Yes, it's exactly the case that workers only own their own labor. That's the exact issue. That they don't own the resources they are using is what capitalism's been all about.

>Not sure what this implies, or how I treated capital like God.
>>Capitalism /allowed/ our prosperity and we must respect it's moral authority as a result.

>>12101159
yeah but killing someone is literally different but even if we assume that in ancapistan you would just get away with it that is better than the fucking STATE

LITERALLY YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE LOCKED UP FOR A NON VIOLENT CRIME OR FALSELY ACCUSED AND THAT DOESNT COUNT PLEA DEALS OR MISDEMEANORS, THAN BE ACTUALLY MURDERED OR GRIEVOUSLY HARMED!!! THE STATE IS OVER TWICE AS DANGEROUS TO NON VIOLENT PEOPLE AS ACTUAL VIOLENT CRIMINALS YOU FUCKING BOOTLICKING FAGGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fucking vigilantes are less dangerous than the fucking STATE

>>12101172
>maintaining a country that doesn't get used by every in-group on the planet is identifying with niggers
Good job goytoy, enjoy the kikes continuing to dominate you until the chinks move in after them.

>>12101165
>>12101180
You talk like a schizophrenic boomer in the youtube comment fields. You should be lynched with your kike masters.

>>12101165

Lenin lived to regret that decision too, and badly. Or rather didn't live kek

>>12101159
also no one is literally saying we want ancapistan tomorrow

we are saying that we want a VERY limited balkanized republic with the promise that individual states or communities CAN WORK TOWARDS achieving ancapistan

ancapistan is like the game winning scenario in civilization

>>12101066
>you would not want to be a slave, thus you should not possess slaves
Spooky. Pretty sure if I didn't want to be a slave, the best thing for my self-interest would be to own MANY slaves.

>>12101209
but it shows that after communist get power they are not actually working for the people anymore and never in history has there been an actual benevolent fair worker's party with appreciable power

also lenin looked kooky af and was a rich spoiled BRAT that led to the murder and torture of hundreds of millions of people

>>12101208
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/reddit/
maybe you would like voting on proper forum speech better than the ANARCHY here you faggot cuck booticking millennial

>continuing to dominate you until the chinks move in after them.

YOU COULD FORM YOUR OWN RETARD CORNER BUT LIKE A COMMUNIST YOU WANT TO FORCE YOUR WILL ON EVERYONE ELSE

>>12101191
>>12101107
LTV is empirically correct and every actual study on the topic has confirmed this:
https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/09/11/emperical-strength-of-ltv/
https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/09/11/labour-values-prices-of-production/
http://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf
http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/DZ_article1.pdf
http://www.helmutdunkhase.de/marxts.pdf
https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/08/14/japan-ltv-test/

As for central planning, that had very little to do with LTV, the soviets used a planning process called balancing which calculated prices according to the costs of the materials that went into them. Much of the problems came from the fact that they tried to simultaneously decide prices and quotas all ahead of time and had no mechanism for changing them during a production cycle, and systemically subsidized consumer staples while increasing prices on luxury goods.

LTV is very important in understanding, for example, the rate of profit, as well as wages in the context of class warfare. By the way, that labor relations were universally coercive according to Marx was not because of the existence of exploitation, but from the fact that people are forced to either work or starve. Exploitation, to him, was not a universal concept in the sense of describing all labor relations everywhere, but a general one which described capitalist economies as a whole.

>>12101305
*planning process called material balancing

>>12101203

And I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make about the South. Ruling classes tend to be tyrannies? Yeah, I think we all agree on that. That's kinda the point. Slavery damaged the labour environment for non-slaves as well, a genuine free market where all that didn't benefit from the institution of slavery ceased to conduct business (even for purely selfish reasons) would have eroded it a lot faster. Might armed conflict still have been needed? Yep, possibly. But having another answer & means to incentivise good behaviour other than "we point guns at the kulaks and demand compliance" is a big part of why AnCaps like the free market.

But you know all this. Again, what's the Leftist answer to this? The appointment of a different ruling class that promises very solemnly to hand over power to society (at some point tm), that despite lacking any kind of market mechanism to abstract the decisions of all into actions, will rule itself? And how would that classless, stateless have dealt with a situation like slavery very much differently than an AnCap society?

>>12101238
>YOU WANT TO FORCE YOUR WILL ON EVERYONE ELSE
>delicious projection
How's your authoritarian stat ... uhm ... private property fantasy going

>>12101345
funny cause labor is cheaper than slavery now and the purchasing power of a low income worker is like basically king level with tvs and computers and cheap ass food and drugs and shit

the only reason cost of living is high is because of SOCIALISM and rent control ironically because it stifles development of neighboring communities and they NEED you crawling on your hands and knees to the bread line or welfare office.. compare cost of living in sweden to other more free markets and you see that price correlates with the amount of socialism

anyone who has ironically worked in government (me) can tell you how those bloodsucking parasites will do anything to try and protect their job and the need for their job and that's why you get 15 different regulatory committees in a city all wetting their beak and absurd "price controls" and shiet

>>12098007
remainder:
ancaps are radicals are leftists

>>12101345
There's a reason Stalin pointed his guns at the kulaks and not the industrial workers, it's because he needed the food the peasants to feed the workers. It was not iron coercion that brought these people to work, although the soviet bureaucracy did preserve an iron discipline otherwise. When people are guaranteed a job, they generally take it. In the stalin years, people were paid piecemeal, and then there were hourly wages after him.

There is, quite frankly, no such thing as the free market. There is always custom, intrusion by group decision making and power consolidation. I frankly don't care about the existence of markets or not, that's not what I'm debating. Marx, himself, only believed markets and money would become obsolete as capitalism achieved total monopolization, which hasn't occurred. I simply think that as production becomes more geared towards meeting the needs of society as a whole, it should be socialized so it's not being coordinated by private profit.

Emancipation is all well and good, and to the extent it's possible, it's only through democratic institutions. Self ownership in that sense, is living according to rules that you had a part in creating. You leave everything up to the market, you're subjected to the market's inhuman logic. That no one is in control doesn't necessarily work to your favor.

>>12101305
Marx could not possibly conceive of the internet, computers, or the level of democratization that industry has gone through. His idea of what exploitation is/isn't is obsolete.

>>12101416
.02 dollars has been deposited to your account.

>>12101378
>REee you want to force me to not force you to be a communist

>>12101305
>He doesn't know about supply and demand

>>12101416
More seriously, though, the internet and it's "democratization" has hardly been the utopia of decentralization that it's early proponents hoped. Even it has been consolidated over time. People only visit a handful of websites, and it's primarily benefited a handful of companies, hence the FAANG.

The predominate relationship of labor today is still wage labor, even though companies like uber go through all kinds of legal hoop-jumping to get around that direct connection to save money.

>>12101424
it's fucking true.. YOU ARE READING THIS ON THE MOST POWERFUL MEANS OF PRODUCTION IN ALL OF FUCKING HISTORY!!!!!!!

YOURE JUST TOO FUKCING PUSSY TO USE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE ONLY REASON YOU HATE CAPITALISM IS BECAUSE YOU CANT ADMIT TO YOURSELF THAT YOU FUCKING SUCK AND YOURE NOT WILLING TO DO THE WORK THAT WOULD ACTUALLY TURN YOU INTO A FUCKING WINNING TRADER YOU FAGGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>12101450
LTV relies on supply and demand anon, it assumes production of supply is moving to meet demand according to it's costs due to competition.

>>12101458
I do trade anon, you're welcome to see my exploits in /smg/. Doesn't change the fact I rely on wage labor to survive, as well as most workers who invest.

>>12098007
Yes

>>12101456
>decentralization that it's early proponents hoped
meanwhile youre on a board dedicated to cryptocurrency which allows you to buy thing thins and trade without other people controlling you

DECENTRALIZATION DOESNT JUST FUCKING POP OUT OF NOWHERE

FUCKING RAISE CAPITAL AND FUCKING BUILD THE CRYPTO UBER OR SOME SHIT YOU FAGGOT

LOOK HOW FUCKIUNG EASY IT IS TO GET MONEY THANKS TO FUCKING CAPITALISM!?!??!?!?!?!

HOW TO GET THE FUCKING MONEY:
https://youtu.be/YjcIRQuCXr0

>>12101483
>crypto
I like making money over loosing money, thanks anon.

>>12101481
>Doesn't change the fact I rely on wage labor to survive, as well as most workers who invest.
YOU COULD BE A BETTER TRADER THOUGH BUT YOU'RE NOT GIVING IT YOUR ALL AND INSTEAD MAKING EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!

LET ME SEE YOUR TRADE JOURNAL THEN FAGGOT????

>>12101305
>People are forced to work or starve

Yeah, that's just a function of being mortal though. If you don't own some means of production, you wind up working for someone that does - who is also "working" in lieu of starving. Again, a problem for all societies, and one solved by post-scarcity rather than politics or economics.

>links

Critiquing those is way out of scope right now haha. Off the bat and from a cursory glance, there's no real mention of capital expenditure, training costs etc, so I'm immediately suspicious of the results. Or exactly which industries, products etc are under consideration for the purposes of the study. All of them? What's the product pricing source? Which country? How would that map to something like software pricing where infinite product replication is possible, ie once initial labour has created it there's potentially infinite profit margins (see Microsoft et al lol)? Maybe that's all in the references, I'd be interested to dig in at some point.

Well, I need to go be an evil capitalist again and exploit my workforce for selfish advantage. Have fun commies. At least we can all always agree on Bezos needing rope, so that's something!

>>12101498
>hue hue hue hue hue

YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO FUCKOING TRADE THEN OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE BASIC TA STILL WORKS IN CRYPTO AND YOU ARE BLAMING CAPITALISM FOR MISSING THE FUCKING BOAT

anyway.. trading is vital to capitalism but obviously not everyone should spend all day trying to be a trader and if they do it's at their own risk.. BUT YOU COULD LITERALLY TAKE A FUCKING LOAN OUT RIGHT FUCKING NOW AND START A FUCKJING COOP OR EVEN A FUCKING CULT COMMUNE THING!!! THERE ARE A MILLION CROWD FUNDING PLATFORMS!! YOU COULD FUCKING TAKE CRYPTO DONATI)ONS!!!! AND YOU ARE SO FUCKING SMALL MINDED AND SUCH A STATIST BOOTLICKER AND SO FUCKING INDOCTRINATED YOU DONT EVEN FUCKING SEE THE OTHER USE CASES FOR CRYPTO CURRENCY BESIDES TRADING!!!!!!!!

>>12101498
>Doesn't change the fact I rely on wage labor to survive, as well as most workers who invest.

and if you actually thought this instead of making excuses you would have gotten short

>>12101386

Yeah, this x100. Now I'm self employed, but I've worked for government. Commies, please go spend some time working for actual government beauracracies. I was actually still a bit of a Leftist until I did. The waste, entitled nepotism & parasitism is just incredible. Much worse than most private businesses.

>>12101498
>I like making money over loosing money, thanks anon.

and if you actually thought this instead of making excuses you would have gotten short

this is actually what i meant instead of the mispost

>>12101424
Cool argument.

Marx had zero fucking technical vision and swore up and down that capitalism MUST monopolize. Decentralization of industry (and capital) within a capitalist framework isn't/wasn't even possible in his mind.

>>12101560
haha yeah dude two stories:

1. We literally developed an app to replace some bitch that just signed papers a few times a week.. like that was her whole fucking job. And when we presented the simple as fuck app the bureaucrats scolded us and had a meeting where they apparently all had eachother's back and said she was "vital" to the office and blah blah blah.

2. they literally ordered 60k worth of new computers supposedly for the whole office but our computers were new af and the new new computers just sat in the storage room the entire rest of the time i was there.. apparently beucracts NEVER ask for less money than the previous year because who would ask their mommy and daddy for less allowance.

Bonus: One time my "boss" walked into the office and saw a tiny scratch on one of the desks and told us to throw away the desk and we didn't have a desk for a week and he ordered a brand new desk of the exact same type.

also all the bureaucrats.. even the supposedly responsible higher ups are all jaded as fuck and blame the bureaucracy for everything and they dont do anything to change it and they just want to cruise control till they get a pension

>>12101526
>>12101555
Market movements and patterns are largely random, anon. I suggest you check out the book the drunkard's walk. Trading is not a skill you can perfect to make money.

>>12101560
I have worked in the government, it was comfy and the people I worked with were largely smart, competent people interested in doing their jobs. Although, I've heard this was one of the better agencies.

>>12101569
That capitalism hasn't monopolized is largely the result of anti-trust measures and the government doing everything it can to prop up small businesses. That's one thing I learned while in gov, how much we had to bend over backward to accommodate small business interest groups.

>>12101412
Final note....

>inhuman logic

As the market is simply the collective action of human decision making, it's about the most human thing there is actually. It already represents the collective interest, as opposed to the new ruling class in a socialised society which will inevitably seek to abuse that power. If instead of a ruling class however you're proposing some kind of technologically mediated collective ownership & decision making mechanism, then you're on the right board - look up what a DAO is and understand why crypto is important. Functionally, us evil selfish AnCaps will end up creating a solution that basically provides exactly what you're after in terms of collective ownership, but simply without needing the coercive faggotry to get there, and still allows for individual sovereignty.

>>12101515
There has always existed a luxury class, early in civilization it was the slave owners, who had their slave work for them, then it was the feudal lords, then the capitalists. That we have the technical capacity to feed everyone with the labor of a small minority of the population is a historically unique situation that capitalism prevents us from taking advantage of.

As for the studies, these use input output tables comparing the labor times of different industries to the output prices. Labor time was an excellent and extremely efficient predictor in every case.

>>12101643
The market, even according to your logic, doesn't take into account the everyone's interests, just those with money, for which everyone who lacks money becomes a servant. But, what makes the market inhuman is exactly what Hayek was so enamored with. All of human desire, action and necessity flattened to a single number: price. That abstraction is what the humanist in Marx so detested. I am not a humanist, I do not care about that fact, but it is certainly a true observation.

>>12101629
>Trading is not a skill you can perfect to make money

Bahahhahaa this is what communists actually tell themselves to EXCUSE them of the responsibility of TRYING.. just like your attitude on capitalism.

There is proof all over the internet and if you actually meet traders in real life you will get proof beyond reasonable doubt that traders can have edges. Even one minute scalpers. You are literally irrational and DOGMATIC to believe otherwise. Just fucking look at the charts and there is an OBVIOUS fractal pattern.. it's less obvious in forex but still there as well.

>I have worked in the government, it was comfy and the people I worked with were largely smart, competent people interested in doing their jobs. Although, I've heard this was one of the better agencies.

Because you think it's COOL to waste taxpayer money you fucking violent thief.

>result of anti-trust measures

THEN HOW COME GOOGLE ONLY OWN HAS 85 PERCENT OF THE MARKET?!?!?!??!

HOW COME REGULATIONS ACTUALLY CAUSE MONOPOLIES IN UTILITIES?!+!?! HOW COME THE COURTS LITERALLY MAKE IT FUCKIJNG IMPOSSIBLE TO START AN ISP EVEN THROUGH CROWD FUNDING:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/one-big-reason-we-lack-internet-competition-starting-an-isp-is-really-hard/

>"They did not want anybody else to come into their territory because they wanted to have that monopoly with their franchise agreements," Wagner told Ars. "What they started to do was file frivolous lawsuit after lawsuit to try to basically bankrupt us so we couldn't compete."

>Wagner recalled about 10 lawsuits from Adephia, and later Comcast, who took over Adelphia's operations in 2006.


god you are fucking indoctrinated

>>12101305
Okay I take back my earlier insult you're clearly not an idiot but those papers you linked have a few flaws that need to be addressed.
1. I'm not going to touch the one by Anwar since that is very foundational and instead critique the econometric analysis that followed (see pic related). The high R2 values indicate that LTV is "true" but all this did was prove that labor and prices have high correlation. It may pass the significance test correlation is useless. Econometrically, I could regress demand and units sold and find an r2 value of 1 which would show that demand for the good is the better indicator. I could also isolate labor and focus on only capital and generate similar r2, does that then imply that a "Capital theory of Value" is true? Of course not.
2. Lets look at the second paper you linked. It assumes the CRTS technology variable applies only to Labor when, even in the Ricardian economy, is known to be a function of Capital AND Labor. Anything past that point is empirically and logically incorrect. It might also interest you to know that Ricardo considered profits in his calculation of value along with the capital needs of the machines themselves (something your paper ignores at least mathematically). This entire paper is nullified by the Cobb-Douglas production function unless your argument is that alpha for capital is 0 in which case I'm not going to waste my time responding.
3. Same use of the CRTS tech variable see 2.
4. From the paper itself, all you've established here is correlation again. See my closing remarks for 1.
5. Cockshoots work is already in pic related and I analyzed it in 1.
6. The entire derivation of (10) is based solely on labor values. If I know variables x and y influence z but choose to derive z based only on ONE of x or y, then any regression I run based on the derived z* will obviously show a high r2 value with the variable of derivation. This is omitted variable bias.

>>12101804
>There is proof all over the internet and if you actually meet traders in real life you will get proof beyond reasonable doubt that traders can have edges
I prefer the hard statistics over meaningless anecdotes. And they don't look god for you.

>Because you think it's COOL to waste taxpayer money you fucking violent thief.
Not all government agencies rely on taxpayer money.

Monopolies naturally arise in utilities, this is well established even by bourgeois economics. Government regulations formalized this so that these monopolies couldn't take advantage of people willy nilly. It was also the government that set up electrical coops in rural areas, including one where I used to live, a fantastic provider.

This should be expanded to internet service providers, and municipalities should be able to form their own public services, which has served many cities incredibly well so far.

>>12101305
>>12101834
>LTV is very important in understanding, for example, the rate of profit, as well as wages in the context of class warfare
It's a framework not the end all be all. The subjective theory of value is a much better fit especially in the context of new technologies and externalities on wages and profits (such as unions, monopsonies, and preferences).
>By the way, that labor relations were universally coercive according to Marx was not because of the existence of exploitation, but from the fact that people are forced to either work or starve
Every system will deviate to the "work or strave" scenario or see massive disenfranchisement of the working class following changing incentives. This point is null and void.
Your overall argument is probably better than most commies but if your base is weak (in this case all your papers rely on correlation), then it will, eventually, fall apart. Take it from a statistician turned data scientist when I say that data is very easy to manipulate. Proving biases through incorrect derivations has been going on for a lot longer than either of us have been alive. If you fundamentally rely on the derivations of an econometric analysis, you can be fooled into believing anything.

>>12101855
>I prefer the hard statistics over meaningless anecdotes. And they don't look god for you.

fucking meet a trader that is able call the market repeatedly.. if you bet against consistent losers you will make money.. you think institutional traders lose money?? you think prop firms lose money?? YOU ARE A FUCKING CUNT

>Not all government agencies rely on taxpayer money.

oh yeah some get bribes through lobbies and STATE ENTERPRISE

>Monopolies naturally arise in utilities

WRONG FUCK FACE.. WHAT FUCKING PROPERTY OWNER DOESNT WANT FIBER RUN TO THEIR PROPERTY IN THIS DAY AND AGE?!??!?!?!

>Government regulations formalized this

EXACTLY WHY THEY ARE MONOPOLIES!!! IF YOU CANNOT GET UTILTIES IN YOUR AREA YOU SHOULD NOT LIVE THERE AND YOU HAVE NO FUCKING PROOF THAT IT COULD NOT WORK IN PRIVATE MODELS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT STRICTLY FORBIDS IT YOU FUCKFACE LIER!!!!

>a fantastic provider

meanwhile lots of people have SHIT PROVIDERS with no recourse or market or the ability to even crowd fund an alternative

>municipalities should be able to form their own public services

YOU CAN ALREADY VOLUNTARILY FORM COOPS WITH CROWD FUNDING BUT YOU ARE A VIOLENT FUCK FACE THAT WANTS TO FORCE PEOPLE INTO SITUATIONS THEY DONT WANT TO BE IN AND THE GOVERNMENT FUCKING RUINS THIS

>>12101855
btw i dont have time for htis anymore fuck you.. you really area fucking cunt and im going to fucking make fun of you on here repeatedly even though that probably fulfills your sick attention seeking communist faggot schism

>>12098007
Absolutely. It's actually impossible to be a capitalist and an anarchist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOTlxsn8tWc

>>12101732
>There has always existed a luxury class, early in civilization it was the slave owners, who had their slave work for them, then it was the feudal lords, then the capitalists
I really hate the materialist Hegelian notion of historical progression of economics. Its outright wrong like most materialist Hegelian. It outright does not apply to east Asia and India which should be the first redflag of the entire concept, where they never went through a transformation process of slavery and instead were in a prolonged period of eternal serfdom or caste roles.

The much better answer to this is Spengler, who pointed out that ever culture goes through its own socialist-sec phase around its early civilization period where classes begin hardening into castes. The reason for the linear-esc progress of roles from slaves to serf to capitalist make sense under Spengler is that it has to do with the cultural theme which was separating the 3 cultures that inhabited the Mediterranean sea. Starting with classical, which was bloodiness, so their industry was mass slavery. Megian who's theme was the cave, so their industry was alchemist. And our own, western, who's theme is infinity which made us strive to replace man with self moving machines.

This is much more convincing then the Marxist theory of materialist Hegelian progression of class roles since it considers and takes into account why 2 separate cultures did not similar experience what we would expect them to otherwise. In fact China had a time before the warring state period where peasants were much more free, but then the Shi regressed back into a state similar to feudalism.

>>12102087
Depends on what you mean by anarchism.
If you mean the absence of the modern state it very well works together under certain assumption in which are nearly impossible to reach with human kind.
Same thing goes with ancoms though, assume a few assumptions and its possible, otherwise its not.
But again that would get us into a semantic definitions game, in which we'd be arguing of who's definition of X is better, to which assuming we aren't arguing with on authority won't work out.

In other words anarchist shitters that get mad capitalists re-purpose their buzzword.

>>12098007

It's actually hard to say, communism might still be THE peak but ancap is pretty damn close.

>>12101834
> Econometrically, I could regress demand and units sold and find an r2 value of 1 which would show that demand for the good is the better indicator.
You could, but that would not make it the better indicator because we're not looking to predict the units sold, but the "value", which is the long term average price ratio between goods.

>I could also isolate labor and focus on only capital and generate similar r2, does that then imply that a "Capital theory of Value" is true?
I believe several of the papers did actually look at organic capital composition, and found that it does correlate highly with profit, as Marx also predicted.

>It assumes the CRTS technology variable applies only to Labor when, even in the Ricardian economy, is known to be a function of Capital AND Labor.
I believe he's counting capital under "indirect labor inputs", given that capital is considered to be "dead labor" in marxist terminology.

>The subjective theory of value is a much better fit especially in the context of new technologies and externalities on wages and profits
SVT is even less testable than LTV. And the correlation has remained, even as these new technologies are introduced.

>Every system will deviate to the "work or strave" scenario or see massive disenfranchisement of the working class following changing incentives. This point is null and void.
The technical capacity currently exists to maintain a minimum standard of living for everyone with a very small amount of labor relative to what it can reproduce. Capitalism makes us incapable of guaranteeing that minimum. It also forces us to work the same long hours or become unemployed as labor saving technology is introduced, instead of shortening the work day while preserving full employment.

I would only be so inclined to disregard all this data is if there was not a solid theoretical backing for LTV. ----

>>12102490
>>12101834
We already have empirical confirmation that marginal utility theory is bunk, after all. That prices are ultimately reducible in actually observable equilibrium to the difficulty it takes to produce the commodity should be common sense, and that of course can only be reduce to the amount of labor time involved. the issues you raise with profit, unions, and monosponies cannot escape the simple fact that value added comes from labor. All of these things merely extract rent, divy up the way the value is cut. Hence, prices correlate to labor values, but profit correlates to organic capital composition.

To derive value from desire is just madness, considering that producers do their best to market clear, the price they eventually arrive at over time must be one determined by the costs associated with production. Desire can determine the quantity supplied, it cannot determine the costs, which is ultimately determined by the productivity of socially necessary labor.

After all, the relative cost of milk to steel isn't determined by changes in preferences for steel and milk. If there's suddenly a scare about milk being unhealthy and desire for it drops, that causes a lapse in demand and the price will go down in the short term, but as producers scale down production, the price will go back up until more milk is produced. What determines that average in the long run, the value? It's the price at which there exists a profit for the commodity that competition permits, thus the costs of production. What determines the ratio of prices between costs of production? What else besides labor productivity. The ease at which it takes to make a given good, the necessary amount of time on average required. We know that if the process to make steel becomes that much more efficient, the price relative to milk will permanently decrease.

>>12102155
I'm not a hegelian, my point wasn't some kind of dialectical historical development, but rather I was trying to show how surplus worked. The ability for some people to live off the work of others without having to work themselves.

>>12102155
>And our own, western, who's theme is infinity which made us strive to replace man with self moving machines
Massive fag talk there

>>12098007
>Empirical reality is racist therefore I reject it
t. Hoppe

>>12102490
>You could, but that would not make it the better indicator because we're not looking to predict the units sold, but the "value"
Except it would also show perfect correlation of the selling price and the value. Value is not objective, you need to consider preferences.
>I believe several of the papers did actually look at organic capital composition, and found that it does correlate highly with profit, as Marx also predicted.
It also correlates with prices not just profit. You have to analyze firm theory for this.
>I believe he's counting capital under "indirect labor inputs", given that capital is considered to be "dead labor" in marxist terminology.
Then he has made a massive mistake. Rent and depreciation have REAL effects on capital that isn't captured in the dead labor model and thus fills your analysis with OVB as mentioned earlier.
>SVT is even less testable than LTV. And the correlation has remained, even as these new technologies are introduced.
SVT assumes that value is subjective which it is (even the classical school agrees on this now). The fact that the r2 hasn't changed is irrelevant because, once again, correlation is expected to exist since its a significant variable in value.
>>12102616
>Marginal utility theory is bunk
No? Marginal utility is a real phenomena. A billionaire is less concerned with the addition of a million $ to his paycheque than a minimum wage worker.
>prices are ultimately reducible in actually observable equilibrium
No they're not. You need to study advance microeconomics and understand preferences man I think that's why you're confused.
> that value added comes from labor
See my old post I can argue just as easily that it comes from Capital.
>producers do their best to market clear
And they generally fail. If I create a good that no consumer wants (preference) then it doesn't matter if I price it down to break even point (= cost of production), it won't sell. 1/2

>>12098822

> keep your hands to yourself, a lesson every five year old has internalised, is "peak retardation"
Statism is cancer.

>>12103216
Ancaps are not libertarians. They are crypto-fascists.

>>12103244
If people want to be discriminatory and exclusionary and form enclaves based on that as free people acting without coercion, what exactly are we supposed to see as wrong with that? The broader free market would reward such behaviour if it were actually economically optimal, and punish it if it were not. They get to choose who they associate with, and not associate with, as surely as anyone else gets to choose. Trying to force people together by threatening them with death is exactly emblematic of the core problem with statism.

>>12098822
>the ultimate red pill is to vote for whatever benefits you the most at any given time, and to completely disregard everyone else and the wider economy.
That's PRECISELY how the middle east works. Arabs view white guys as complete suckers for working for "ideals" isntead of for themselves.

>>12103298
> the middle east "works"
But it doesn't. Unless that's your point, in which case, sure.

>>12098786
>>12098822
Wrong
The "ultimate redpill" is that democracy is a false god, limiting your political involvement to election participation is for sheep, and your own individual ability is much greater than society leads the masses to believe
I like to categorize intelligent people into 2 categories. Geniuses who possess talent and/or a greater capacity to learn, and Scholars who possess the ambition to achieve greatness and the will to put in the effort to achieve it.
Modern society has displayed an enormous ineptitude at fostering the development of Geniuses and their talents, resulting in their talents decaying through complacency in their success as they get overtaken by Scholars.
As it is currently, there isn't a single person on this planet that I believe can be considered both a Genius AND a Scholar, which is why we don't have any modern equivalent to Shakespeare, Plato, or any other historical legends.
As a result, ordinary people who put in the effort to achieve something and manage to dodge the artificial restraints modern society puts on our individual progress are capable of achieving more than anyone alive today.
Modern society restricts the masses greatly by teaching that an overpriced degree is the peak of human achievement and that there are no other paths to success than by conforming to the system, which is simply not true.
All that is needed is to stop looking up to the puppets on the TV screen/PC monitor as experts you must follow, beyond your capability to surpass, and the will to put in the effort to make your own dreams a reality.