/biz/ - Business & Finance

he says pretty much what many anons have been talking about for a while

>>11874385
yeah... i have been telling you mongs that if the central banks adopt crypto among themselves it will be a pos closed source system, and your sorry ass is not invited to validate it or hold and trade it. and it will definitely not going to be any existing crypto.

i have been called many things... people don't understand this is a natural thing. it doesn't invalidate bitcoins existence either since putting the reserve currency to crypto is a technicality those that don't trust central authority will not magically start either. the two will coexist. bitcoin will be there for anyone not wanting to play their games.

So which coin is has large reserves sitting frozen waiting for mass distribution?

Then again you have to consider other nations. The world is not as united as it was in 1988 and many factions will simply say no to this.

>>11874413
>So which coin is has large reserves sitting frozen waiting for mass distribution?
trying to sell XRP's extreme centralization as an argument for mass adoption. now that is some desperate shilling.

>>11874361
the btc dip is directly related to this while you barenaked retards talk about a hash war. Central banks will have their own currency and sure not adopt anything.
It‘s unironically over, but keep hodling you amateurs.

>>11874445
Lot of pressure on bitcoin. So I predict it will go up and become the global currency. Already distributed and waiting.

>>11874385
Yeah they mostly rehash old stuff at zerohedge. At least they talk about it.

>>11874405
It will be like the internet. Free an open (for the most part) but all the normalfags are corralled into very few centralized networks.

>>11874413
Good, let them say no.
The last thing we need is for there to be no out in case it turns into a dystopian nightmare.
Hopefully there are a few based af countries out there that will stick to Gold/Silver only - somehow.

>>11874476
1) its a private fucking company. why would banks not simply create their own crypto, eliminating the middle-man?
2) the token itself is useless and thus holds no value. why would i buy it off of you for x dollars (whatever amount would buy you a fucking lambo) when i don't need it?

>>11874571
1. What if they don't have a choice?
2. What if certain governments were prepared to back Bitcoin with physical assets?

>>11874586
i was talking about XRP, not bitcoin.
the anon i replied to desperately tried to shill the XRP shittoken as the new global currency.
speaking about bitcoin: it could become part of a basket of virtual assets at best, it simply can't function as an actual (day to day) currency. in that case it would be part of other assets backing the dollar, not vice versa (not the one *being* backed).

Stopped reading when he said bitcoin had no underlying value. Fucking illiterates man, they're everywhere

>>11874626
Why can't Bitcoin function as a currency?

gonna put money into ripple
doing the opposite of what biz says always makes me money

>>11874647
because it doesn't fucking scale.

>>11874653
>doing the opposite of what biz says always makes me money
reddit loves XRP (just go there and see). you're in good company, i promise. gl anon. just pls stay there.

>>11874405
Empire vs Rebellion basically, Star Wars becomes a reality with Ben Shapiro being the most influential senator in the galaxy

>>11874667
The OP was referring to Bitcoin. Millions of them are being held by governments or banks right now.

As far as it being able to scale.
Probably more than most realize, but it depends on how it gets rolled out.

Apparantly its going to be ZCASH. It was featured on the wconomist, has connections to MIT, Israel, Rothschilds, etc

>>11874586
>back Bitcoin with physical assets?
that's an abomination best not even speak of!!
asset backed crypto is the most retarded shit ever conceived.

>>11874719
Well you are right of course.
It depends on what the elites want to do.
Are they going to allow crypto to be a free market system that finds value on its own.
Or will they try to 'lock it in place' based on how much new notes they print and how much PMs they hold?

Can't tell.
Free market option sounds better though.

>>11874405
No, they will play their games on BTC too. But credulous fools will think they're clever and have avoided them, because they don't actually understand cryptocurrency.

>>11874686
DELETE THIS IMMEDIATELY

>>11874747
if you think with the head of central bankers and the financial elite for a moment it becomes pretty clear what the ideal money is for them:
>quick cheap and safe to transact (no human error or misdirection)
>based on central (albeit somewhat distributed because none of them trust each other) authority and trust both in issuance and in transactions
>growth of the money base adapts to the growth of the economy and economic activity thus keeping inflation at around 2-3% as much as possible
>high transaction capacity and closed auditability (no zero proof systems), it can be closed from the public eye but it will be open to the central banks and regulatory institutions

as opposed to btc which is:
>deflationary fixed supply
>based on proof of work and is distributed and trustless decentralized (in theory)
>low transaction capacity and total open and public auditability

>>11874806
the financial elite sees btc as a speck of dust under their shoes hard to even see in the vast sea of sand that is the monetary system. the memeing annoys them sure.

>>11874853
When you put it that way Bitcoin sounds pretty based.
If they attack Bitcoin, they aren't actually attacking Bitcoin thanks to the fact that it forked twice.
I wonder if they know which one to try and kill.

This is why crypto is such an absolute cesspool right now. It's become a market traded on conspiracy theories.

I haven't come across a single other security/commodity that is traded this way.

>>11874913
yeah all i'm saying that almost all properties of bitcoin that makes it great is something that is totally worthless in the eyes of the masters of the financial system.

that is why i cringe when people talk shit about it becoming world reserve currency. it fucking can't. it's like saying goats are cheaper to maintain and more practical than women, some men even already fuck goats so all men will fuck goats in the future. it sounds logical except for that most men want to fuck women or other man they are not looking for a goat in their sexual life. even tho i'm sure goats are awesome on many ways.

>>11874926
except for metals of course which is even worse nutcase filled cesspool

>>11874937
Putting aside the bestiality, I think it possible that the old elite are being replaced by a new elite that have different views on how the world should run.
Some potential proof of this power change would be the election of Trump.

With Trump there is a choice

1. He is a pawn of theirs and a false hope.
2. He represents a changing of the guard.

The only way to know for sure is to see what happens in the future.
I've seen too many coincidences ... I think there is a non-zero chance that Bitcoin might actually play a big role in the future of money.

>>11874958
>I think it possible that the old elite are being replaced by a new elite that have different views on how the world should run.
i'm afraid if that happens they will be full on marxist big state assholes as opposed to the full on capitalist big state assholes we have now.

>>11874944
Not even close imo. If you mean the gold shilling because of the supposed upcoming financial collapse, that's not really a conspiracy theory per se. It's fear mongering and doomsdaying but not exactly a conspiracy as gold is a very secure investment in case of an economic collapse and has been so literally forever.

>>11874967
oh come on just watch some vids on youtube from gold and silver bugs... it will only take a few hours of skimming through the craziest conspiracy theories ever conceived. i think 4chan is not the natural habitat of gold bugs it's a generational thing.

>>11874965
Marxism is part of the old guard, and they vacillate between Capitalism and Socialism/Marxism as two false choices that keep the people thinking they are experiencing change while the elites stay in control.

Nah, I'm talking about things actually changing.
Like power shifting from people who want to control us, to people who think freedom is good.
It's only a possibility. And its a very small one.

And even if the new elites like freedom, they are probably going to be more ruthless and darwinian than the last group.

>>11874991
>i think 4chan is not the natural habitat of gold bugs it's a generational thing.

Yeah you might be right on that one..

>>11874413

>>11874994
>Like power shifting from people who want to control us, to people who think freedom is good.
how on earth that could ever happen? anyone that seeks power by the very definition seeks control. because power is control. man...

if a group truly cherishing freedom and openness and self governance came to power they would completely lose it to populist power mongers backed by oligarchs in 2 years flat.

trump is a fine example what he is at his core is a populist power monger and an oligarch. what he says is what you want to hear. what he does is what makes him and his friends money even if it fucks your future utterly and completely.

he is the man that gives little kids a candy and porks them in the ass then says he is a good man he gives a lot of candy to children.

>>11875005
That's because the younger generation has been brainwashed away from Gold/Silver as being valueable.
Thankfully they have Bitcoin to lean on, otherwise they would be fucked.

>>11874694
It's leaning towards side pegging to provide scalability. The cartel will like anonymous sidepegs that don't cost anything to liquidate. I wonder which one that could be?

>>11875018
Yup, that's the possibility that I mentioned above.
He could easily be that.

But it's also possible that these new elites have taken power for righteous reasons. Do I think it's likely? Nah. Possible? Maybe. Mayyyyyybe.
We'll have to wait and see.

>>11874944
You have it backwards stupid. Gold is real savings.

The reason your investing in shitcoins is because you can't "make it" otherwise because the Jews in the govt are stealing our wealth Through inflation.... unironically because our currency isn't backed by gold anymore.

Being anti gold is like being anti water. You got educated in govt public schools that's why you don't value gold.

Even pajeet street shitters and starving sub Saharan Africans with no formal education even know that gold is money and savings

>>11875020
Crypto will have to be backed by gold.

I mean wtf is going to happen? Bitcoin goes up and down like crazy. You can't use that for a currency.

Most of the idiots in this board are retarded. And don't even understand the number 1 primary function of money.... which is to MEASURE VALUE for goods exchanged for it. Something gold has done for milennia and still does today despite being demonetized by govts.

>>11875043
yeah i'm not gonna rise to this bait sorry i have tried to explain a hundred times why everything in that post is total horsecrap and it doesn't stick.

i'm just gonna say this: money is debt. all money is and always was. it's the entire point to money. it represents debt. when gold was money gold was debt. gold is not money anymore so gold is a commodity now.

>>11874471
so tell me again, how can something be a blockchain if it's controlled by a central entity ?
Because as far as I know, "central blockchain" is just a fucking server.

>>11875074
Gold *IS* very much still money. There isn't a place in the world that doesn't have a pawn shop that won't give you instant money for gold. Not a place in the world.

There might even be places that won't take USD, but will take gold.

>>11875074
Just lmao anon,
gold represents stored value
"hidden secrets of money" video series. 10 videos.
Enjoy

>>11875067
As someone who enjoys order, your idea is good.
But I wonder the consequences of 'forcing' something into place by pegging/backing one thing with another.

>>11875089
techno-weenie please go.

>>11875074
You've been brainwashed to think money is debt! MONEY IS NOT DEBT! Where the fuck did you learn that?

Our currency is a debt instrument now. Hence why the entire economy is fucked and we are 20 trillion in debt. You can't have freedom and prosperity when your currency is a debt instrument.

You need to rewire your brain.

>>11875089
uhm private blockchain as something used within a single organization is worthless a relational database is a billion times more efficient.

but you can have a closed group that implements a distributed ledger within the group. for example the central banks could run a ledger among themselves and it would still be blockchain even tho it wouldn't be open to you.

>>11875098
>MONEY IS NOT DEBT!
it is and always was.
try to think about it! not just regurgitate the bullshit you have been fed...
>You need to rewire your brain.
that's your cult conditioning speaking right there.

>>11875092
>"hidden secrets of money" video series. 10 videos.
>Enjoy
i did enjoy it it's very well made

>>11875092
Consequences? What are the consequences if we don't? We are living through the consequences right now of going off a gold standard and having a central bank.

the ONLY issue is prices are rising. Crypto doesn't solve that. Yeah obv we are moving towards payments and shit in crypto but there will have to be a gold revaluation at some point. The world is swimming in debt.

People with even just 500 ounces of silver will have a generation worth it wealth. People with usd will get a major haircut and become a lot poorer

>>11875114
private blockchain is a meme. Any tech literate person knows this.Please go back to your shrimp farming nigger, this is beyond you.

>>11875119
The bullshit that I've been fed? That gold has been money for milennia? That bullshit?

Go open up the Bible you can find a verse saying that 1 oz of gold bought you 350 loaves of bread 2,500 years ago before Christ was born.

That same gold coin from 2,500 years ago still buys you roughly 350 loaves of bread. If you take it to a coin shop you get $1,200 and if you take that $1,200 to a grocery store bread is about 3.50 which = about 350 loaves of bread

>>11875134
nigger what did i say? why not read it?

>>11875127
Bitcoin solves things through a fixed supply - no inflation.
Bitcoin is a digital approximation of Gold.
Using Gold to back Bitcoin is like using Gold to Back Silver, it doesn't make sense.
They both exist ont heir own merits.

>>11875144
>That gold has been money for milennia? That bullshit?
no
the bullshit about money being anything but debt.

>>11875146
It might be priced in Gold in the future, but not backed by it directly.

>>11875146
>Bitcoin is a digital approximation of Gold.
actually gold is mined at an exponentially increasing rate while bitcoin has a fix cap on supply. it's an improvement if anything.

just gonna let this here
https://twitter.com/RomanSemko/status/1066291110601928710

>>11875158
Gold is still rare enough to be useful
Bitcoin has its own issues as well.
They compliment each other nicely.

>>11875149
But gold has been money for thousands of years and still is and it's not debt.

Read the constitution, only gold and silver shall be legal tender...

Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson explaining wtf would happen if we go the path we have gone since 1913... and we are living through exactly what he would describe what would happen.

Quotation: "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.... I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

>>11875153
i told you all asset backed crypto is bullshit. it's the biggest fucking snake oil shit crap nigger retarded concept in crpyto. because there is no way to back anything in a decentralized way. it's not possible. someone somewhere will just sell the fucking gold and keep trading the tokens on day 1 for instant profit.

>>11875167
>But gold has been money for thousands of years
yes
>and still is
no
>and it's not debt.
no

see? you are right 1 out of 3... that's pretty bad.

>>11875176
So what happens? Xrp becomes the world currency or whatever 99.99% of the world doesn't own xrp. 100,000 people or so own xrp. They all become rich because it goes to 200$ and everyone else is poor as fuck

>>11875176
I agree.
The market will figure out the correct value for Bitcoin.

>>11875181
Just because your god the govt says that gold isn't money anymore doesn't make it so brainlet. You'd probably drink your own piss if the govt declared that piss was water

>>11875194
21M Bitcoin
21 cubic M of Gold
Coincdience?

>>11875194
Except nobody owns bitcoin. So how the fuck is that going to work? I mean I would bet the avg crypto investor has less than 2 bitcoins

>>11875167
>that's a misunderstanding money is not made of nothing it represents liability. basically a promise of future performance. money always has been just that and nothing more.
>like i said before money is not an actual thing it's just a promise of future performance. that is why you can trade it for services because anyone you give your fancy fungible iou to knows he will be able to in the future exchange it to services he requires. if money is given in return of past present of future performance matters not at all. these things are not magically different you just move the burden of risk around.

try to read this again and again and understand and think about it then come back and we can discuss it further.

money is debt. this is the conclusion i have arrived to after 2 years of grokking on the issue. watching the hidden secrets of money series and a bunch of economic lectures about the history of economy and money.

>>11875194
yes an unbacked crypto is just valued on it's own there is no way to pull that value out from under it for any one actor (ideally if it's distributed enough).

also for it to function as money the relative price/purchasing power doesn't even matter.

>>11875219
You agree that gold and dollars are both forms of money correct?

Assuming you agree with that....

Which has held up better as money since 1913?

>>11875219
Fiat currency is debt
Money and currency aren't the same thing
Money is money
Debt is Debt

Saying that money is debt is like saying that red is blue
Money is the opposite of debt

Debt is an obligation of repayment of value
Money is the opposite of that, it is an obligation to get something in return for your value.

Money is stored value
Debt is stored lack of value

Money is proof that you can get something
Debt is proof that you owe something

>>11875204
go to your convenience store and buy a pack of cigarettes with a gold bullion! see what happens!
a) they take it on face value ie $50 and the cashier nigger basically buys it from you at a huge discount and you lost about $1000
b) they tell you to fuck right off

>>11875218
Average people don't dictate the course of things.

>>11875238
Markets can be manipulated though

>>11875251
Thank you. Spot on. Money is SAVINGS. Gold is REAL savings.

Dollars are debt instruments.

100 years ago a good weekly salary was 20$ which equaled an ounce of gold.

Today that 20$ buys you jack shot but that gold ounce converted to fiat is still a good weekly salary.

So you could have worked for a week in 1920 and held that gold coin for 100 years and still be able to buy roughly The same amount of shit today as 100 years ago. Whereas that 20$ doesn't buy you anything today

>>11875219
Money isn't debt. Money is a store of value. Value can be translated to mean 'energy' or 'effort'.

By your logic EVERYTHING is a 'promise of future performance'. Even if we went back to a purely barter economy, the things being bartered all have a 'promise of future performance'.

Also by your logic, the entire global economy would collapse as people could say 'yeah I'll do the work you want me to when you actually buy me everything I would with the money you'll pay me at the completion of my work'. Everything would literally collapse.

>>11875244
>You agree that gold and dollars are both forms of money correct?
not exactly gold was money in the old times, because it was an anti-forgery measure plain and simple. carried the proof of the work it took to find and mine the gold, to replicate it you needed to put the same work into it.

gold was also a form of debt a promise on future performance or goods and services. an iou that made accounting easy because of the uniformity/fungiblity. that's what made it money. nobody would have taken a gold coin for a pig if he wasn't sure he can get a pig for it next year. nobody! it is an iou that can be traded and is interchangeable (in fact is a medium of exchange). that's what money is.

today gold is a commodity not money. not more than iron coal zink copper or oil.

>>11875258
It isn't about buying shit with gold dude. It's about giving the currency a basis of value. Nobody bought shit with gold in 1960 under a gold standard.

Gold is both money and can be a currency too. But it is more importantly money.

And as far as buying things with gold. You can go on YouTube right now and see starving Africans panning for gold in river beds and when they accumulate .01 gram is gold you can see them exchanging it for a loaf of bread.

This shit is so easy dude. You say you research all this shit and watch videos on the history of economies and it's staring you straight in the face. And it's so easy to accept.

Being anti gold is like being anti water. It just doesn't make any fucking sense

>>11875271
>By your logic EVERYTHING is a 'promise of future performance'. Even if we went back to a purely barter economy, the things being bartered all have a 'promise of future performance'.
no barter is an immediate exchange of value. if you give someone a fish on the promise he gives you a fish tomorrow you just received an iou. when that iou is durable fungible a unit of account and so on and so on, you got money. if that money is clam shell or gold or paper or whatever the fuck doesn't matter. it's fucking debt.

>>11874361
If banks can replace dollar with crypto why would that mean crash is eminent? Wouldn't that make crypto both valuable and scarce if it becomes the norm?

>>11875290
Your idea of how money works is just wrong anon.
Gold isn't an IOU, because there's nothing to be owed when you have gold.

Gold contains the value that you seek within itself.
There's nothing to be owed. Gold IS THE VALUE.

Currency is an IOU because its just a piece of shit toilet paper that has no value at all. It is an IOU because passing that paper around only works if people believe that at some point they can trade that paper for actual value somewhere.

Gold is not an IOU because if the conveyer belt of money transfer stopped and society collapsed, the last guy in line holding the gold would be perfectly happy and content, because Gold is value.

>>11875290
Like I said above.....

100 years ago a good weekly salary 20$ and 20$ equaled an ounce of gold.

Today that 20$ doesn't even buy you you lunch for two at Taco Bell. But if you exchange that gold ounce you earned 100 years ago at a coin shop you'll get $1,200 for it..... which is STILL a good weekly salary.

Just because the faggot govt says gold isn't money anymore doesn't mean it isn't dude. And my spoonfeeding you example above proves it

>>11875293
>It isn't about buying shit with gold dude.
yeah man i have to disagree money is for buying shit plain and simple. that is the one universal purpose of money is to "exchange it to goods and services" without providing goods and services on spot of your own.

>>11875314
The number one use of money is to store value.
Think of it as potential energy.
Being able to trade it for things just proves that people are willing to make things in order to get money in return.

>>11875304
Also...... do you think it's just a coincidence that since going off the gold standard a mere 40 years ago that the term "income inequality" is now a top 3 issue?

You know under a gold standard the term "income inequality" didn't even exist. Nobody said it.

So clearly gold not backing the currency anymore has fucked yo the economy so much that "income inequality" has become a huge thing

>>11875310
>Gold isn't an IOU
not anymore it isn't you are right about that. but when it was money it was an iou.

what gave gold value was not gold itself that's a moronic assumption. it was the goods and services it could buy. this was always true for any form of money. humans have needs, and they don't fucking need gold. a human can live without gold indefinitely. a human can't live without food, without water, without shelter, without clothes. well not on most parts of the earth and not in the way we define human life.

>>11875314
Yes you buy shit with money and under a gold standard those dollars were redeemable in gold! The DOLLAR represented GOLD.

Every heard the term the dollar is as good as gold? Under a gold standard you were buying shit with gold it was just pegged to the dollar.

Do you even know that it was gold that gave the dollar value?

250 years ago if banks started issuing dollars backed by nothing Americans would have told them to fuck off

>>11875329
>The number one use of money is to store value.
that's exactly what an iou is nigga.

>>11875340
Money isn't a need, you're right, it is an invention.
But inventions can be so important that they become very hard to live without.

>>11875345
Let's say I own 1 ounce of Gold.
What is the IOU part of this?
What do I own the rights to?

>>11875340
Your problem is you think the govt is god. That's why you don't accept gold as money anymore.

I just gave you a spoonfed example.

100 years ago 20$ was a good weekly salary and that 20$ = 1 oz of gold.

So if you went back in time and worked for a week and you made 20$. What would you take back with you to the future in 2018? The gold ounce which equaled 20$ or would you bring the 20$ with you?

I don't know how you can't understand something so simple

>>11875334
gold standard was retarded, same as an asset backed crypto there is no way for the public to enforce or audit the backing. but the reason why the government started to cheat was interesting: it didn't fucking work for the economy. booms and busts were constant, loaning got hard or impossible periodically. it was a nightmare on it's own. wages detaching from productivity increase are not directly related to abandoning the gold standard. only in that that leaving the gold standard probably enabled the insane productivity growth the wages didn't keep up with. this needs further research tho it's just an idea.

>>11875345
Lol what?

>>11875361
>Your problem is you think the govt is god.
i sure as hell don't.
>That's why you don't accept gold as money anymore.
no that's not it. but in a way this is an other nail in the coffin, because money is defined by it being legal tender. and legal tender is determined by the state. so a statist would say gold can't be money if it's not legal tender (certain bullions are but it's a joke).

i don't think gold is money because it doesn't act like money in the economy. at all. the world moved on to something objectively better and more useful. first paper then numbers on computers.

the only question remaining is who has control over these numbers on computers when and to what degree?

>>11875363
The greatest wealthiest country in world history was created under a gold standard.

And the economy is completely and utterly fucked right now because we aren't on a gold standard.

I'd rather have a tug of war between expansion and recessions that are based in reality where the free market works things out than have what we have now with 20 trillion in debt and everyone not having any savings

>>11875382
Gold is money
The fact that governments moved on from it proves that they are criminal
Not that gold is bad

>>11875365
an iou is a store of value

>>11875357
>Let's say I own 1 ounce of Gold.
>What is the IOU part of this?
the "I own 1 ounce of Gold" part altho it should be more formal like: "i solemnly swear to provide to the bearer of this token 1 ounce of gold or the equivalent in good or services at his request"

>>11875382
Dude.... the dollar was literally redeemable in gold. What are you not understanding about this? You used to be able to go to the bank and give the teller 20$ and you could have a gold ounce.

Obviously using gold and silver coins as payment is not efficient... which is why you have USD created which makes it easier to transact.... but that DOLLAR equaled GOLD

>>11875400
Do you fundamentally understand that the dollar represented gold?

>>11875395
>Gold is money
not anymore. sorry.
>The greatest wealthiest country in world history was created under a gold standard.
and it's wealth increased hundred fold since it abandoned it and we sen technological developments and cheap goods and services that would amaze people of that time.
>And the economy is completely and utterly fucked right now because we aren't on a gold standard.
the economy is fucked because the economy gets fucked periodically it's human nature. the economy got fucked regularly on the gold standard but since the entire thing was much smaller it didn't seem like this looming tragedy.

>>11875400
What the fuck anon.
an IOU is a promise that you will get something that has value
Promises can be broken
that's why IOU's are SHIT

Gold is not an IOU because it is the thing that people create IOU's for.
Please take some math classes, some logic classes, some finance classes, and probably some english classes too.

>>11875395
Bingo

>>11875416
the dollar represented gold and the gold was an iou so the dollar was an iou on an iou. and today numbers on your bank account represent paper bills that are ious so you got an iou on an iou also. and when you buy bonds they are an iou on an iou on an iou. seems like all you ever get is an iou of some form when you go after money.

>>11875421
>Promises can be broken
indeed and we have arrived to the second part of the lecture: risk

>>11875441
And there is NO risk with gold

>>11875441
No.
Risk, finance.

>>11874860
>>11874937
>>11874944
What you're not getting with all your criticisms is that --they made it that way--
http://archive.is/CaYTZ

>>11875465
it's more like
>good sound money is a form of iou that carries as close to zero risk as possible
there are always risks with ious you always have inflationary risk for example.

it's part of what makes money money that since the system is distributed in ideal circumstances you will find someone willing to sell you some shit for 1 whatever that you sold for 1 whatever earlier. there are no grantees of course the supply off things fluctuate, but the overall purchasing power of good sound money should remain relatively stable.

for money in general you only need the price to be stable relatively short term. for a few months to a year. if the purchasing power is not stable week to week it impacts the usefulness of money. that's a given.

but there is more. since money is a zero risk iou what about the ious that are not zero risk? how do you measure them and how do you price in the risk? obviously using a unit of account of some sorts right? in the earlier example if you catch 5 fish, and your neighbor usually catches 5 too but only caught 2 and you give him one fish on the promise he gives you 2 tomorrow, you priced in the risk of not getting that 2 fish tomorrow and maybe you both made a good deal, his family won't go hungry tonight and you might get more fish to smoke or you might catch only 3 fish next day. win win problem only arises if the same happens next day. risk...

people that are bad at assessing and managing their risk will lose wealth over time. doesn't matter what form money takes. doesn't matter if the money is inflationary or deflationary.

>>11875566
no ln doesn't change the fundamental properties of btc in any way. ln is a medium term solution for micro payments nothing less nothing more, that is seen by some as an immediate need for wider adoption.

in this thread:
anons who anally blue-pilled themselves by not buying BTC are now larp-wanking to an old (((Hollywood))) movie, kek

>>11875620
Wrong thread.

>>11875584
That's simply untrue.
If we have a broadcast ledger that tracks transactions between only use, and the only transactions on that ledger require a signature from us, and we can see how the money enters into that system as part of the ledger, it is impossible to tamper with that system.
As soon as you add an extra layer of opacity, traditionally private vaults storing bullion as the settlement layer, and paper receipts for that bullion as the transaction layer, and everyone interfaces with that transaction layer and the settlement layer is just there for show, the outcome is obvious, it happened with gold and every other asset that was ever managed this way, and it will happen with any cryptocurrency that splits the settlement and transaction layers in the exact same way.
And that is exactly what a permanent throughput limit on the primary transaction layer does. It forces tx throughput to other layers, and it just so happens those other layers can be trivially tampered with, because they're not broadcast and they are opaque. What's more they never can be, because the core argument around why this must be done is broadcast is inefficient. Which is correct, but much is inefficient if you ignore what the inefficiency actually buys you, which in this case is wholesale realtime auditing of the money supply and money flows in the economy.
Sticking to that system --completely destroys-- the fiat based post bretton woods post nixon shock shitshow we have right now. They can't allow it to happen, and that's why they ensured what they did happened to BTC.
Everybody knows this now, it was obvious a year ago when it was first made fait accompli, and it has become more obvious every time they've added a new layer to make the manipulation easier. Eternally cheerleading the uncountable elite because they always just play a xanatos gambit card and bluff their way into people believing they have insurmountable power does not change a thing.

>>11875638
I repeat:
anons who anally blue-pilled themselves by not buying BTC (and you should implicitly understand "back in 2011", newfag, kek)

>>11875640
>and we can see how the money enters into that system as part of the ledger
that's not a thing
>it is impossible to tamper with that system
nothing is impossible
>As soon as you add an extra layer of opacity
ln only obfuscates (if) the number of transactions not the total flow (ie end result) not really a game changer in any way.
>And that is exactly what a permanent throughput limit on the primary transaction layer does.
you see it permanent i see it as something that will give in to demand. ln has limited scaling with 1mb blocks as the opening and closing of channels are all on chain transactions and locking large funds into channels indefinitely is too costly so they will have a lifespan.
>and it just so happens those other layers can be trivially tampered with
the entire point of ln is you never lose custody of your funds. you only risk being locked into a channel longer than anticipated.
>because the core argument around why this must be done is broadcast is inefficient.
as someone writing multiple cryptographic and peer to peer software i can tell you this: broadcast is inefficient as fuck. it spams the network like there is no tomorrow above a certain size and message number. if you want ln to be an ecosystem where small nodes have a chance of competing in fees with the big ones where even you could run a hub with a few btc, broadcast is not an option. if you only have like 4-5 entities that act as credit card companies then it doesn't fucking matter.

>>11875706
> that's not a thing
Yes it is, the fact that you don't know this when it's an absolutely basic function of the system (mining rewards per block) really should clue you in that you have no idea what's going on
> nothing is impossible
Yes it is, pic related.
> ln only obfuscates (if) the number of transactions not the total flow (ie end result) not really a game changer in any way.
Wrong, if the central banks control the actual transaction layers, they can play the exact same scam on BTC that they played on gold that resulted in a 542:1 paper to physical gold ratio on comex.
> you see it permanent i see it as something that will give in to demand
And you are wrong, because you don't see what the actual purpose of the limit is. You are bluepilled as fuck.
> the entire point of ln is you never lose custody of your funds.
You never lose custody of 50k USD in your personal safe, either. That doesn't mean the purchasing power can't get fucked in the ass because of forex shenanigans by central banks. Exactly the same scenario with BTC.
> broadcast is inefficient as fuck
I didn't deny that it was, I simply pointed out that it was necessary if you wish to maintain complete audit of the supply at all times. You don't realise that it's necessary because you don't seem to even realise you have complete audit of the supply at all times prior to the blockstream sabotage. As someone that supposedly writes software I find that difficult to believe and think you sound like just any other retarded corecuck desperately trying to cling to a lie that was exposed outright beyond all reasonable doubt a year ago.

"What problem does Bitcoin solve?", the low IQ goyim asked.

>>11875741
>mining rewards per block
yeah i thought you can't possible be talking about that because it would be too idiotic.
>Wrong, if the central banks control the actual transaction layers, they can play the exact same scam on BTC that they played on gold that resulted in a 542:1 paper to physical gold ratio on comex.
wow... this would be too long, skip!
>because you don't see what the actual purpose of the limit is.
the purpose of the limit was to create economic incentive for adopting segwit before it was anywhere near useful.
>if you wish to maintain complete audit of the supply at all times
again ln doesn't change the nature of bitcoin, the blockchain remain the same, number of coins can't change total number of coins locked in the channels can't change either, there is just no way to multiply supply not even virtually with ln.

>>11875790
that picture is fucking funny, i'm not saying it's not true for consumer debt. but that's like saying life is cancer because cancer is alive.

>>11875465
>gold
It is inferior to Bitcoin, objectively speaking. Enjoy getting your wealth (((confiscated))) when you need to cross any borders as they pass E.O 6102 part 2 if you try to circunvent (((fiat))). Meanwhile high IQ Bitcoin holders will be moving billions across borders seamlessly.

By the time you realize Bitcoin being intangible is a positive trait, it will be too late for you dumb asses.

>>11875809
> yeah i thought you can't possible be talking about that because it would be too idiotic.
"Is not hurrr durr"
> the purpose of the limit was to create economic incentive for adopting segwit before it was anywhere near useful.
Right, rather than actually just crossing that bridge when it came. Makes perfect sense to utterly fuck the system for that purpose, rather than fucking the system being the purpose. You're an idiot.
> again ln doesn't change the nature of bitcoin, the blockchain remain the same,
What's on the chain doesn't matter when 99%+ of the TX flow is between counterparties off chain that can do whatever the fuck they like with the supply they're handing amongst themselves. If you are too stupid to understand this, then the trap which you're currently in was specifically designed to remove idiots like you from the pool, and there's nothing I can do to change it. Enjoy your fate.

>>11875363
The only reason we have had "insane productivity growth" after decoupling from sanity (gold standard) is because it's easy to have "insane" (indeed) productivity growth when you don't have to account for the money created out of thin air to finance all the dumb shit that's financed. Infinitely growing debt is passed around to the next sucker "in charge" as a futile kicking can down road exercise, extended by memes such as QE.

Bitcoin is now a better gold which will protect the wealth from the up and coming nation-state clusterfuck as the hallucination that involves fiat having value ends. Go study John Nash Ideal Money and you may understand why Bitcoin already won.

>>11875826
>"Is not hurrr durr"
alright explain how would ln change the miners reward mechanism in any way! i'm curious now.
>Right, rather than actually just crossing that bridge when it came. Makes perfect sense to utterly fuck the system for that purpose, rather than fucking the system being the purpose. You're an idiot.
no i actually agree with you. i'm just saying why it happened makes sense for some. i was pro block increase and wanted segwit also but with a new optional opcode in a proper hard fork no ambiguity no fucking around.
>What's on the chain doesn't matter when 99%+ of the TX flow is between counterparties off chain that can do whatever the fuck they like with the supply they're handing amongst themselves.
yeah let's agree to disagree, the only thing matter is what's on chain at the end of the day. and also it's impossible to set up a new channel for the same coins without settling the first one so it's not like you can just keep settlement off chain forever. unless i missed something it was a while ago i last looked into ln.

>>11875897
> alright explain how would ln change the miners reward mechanism in any way! i'm curious now.
It doesn't need to, because the blockchain itself is irrelevant when nobody is actually using it. Lightning, Liquid, Bakkt. These are what people will actually use. The backing BTC blockchain will be a handwaving mechanism to distract credulous fuckwits who don't understand they're being raped on other levels out of their view.
> the only thing matter is what's on chain at the end of the day
Then let's create our own Blockchain of IMF SDR's and allocate 50% of the supply to each other and we'll be world emperors. Because magical blockchain. Who cares if everyone else in the world ignores it. Who cares if none of the transactions go through it. ITS THE AUTHORITATIVE BLOCKCHAIN MMKAY.
Jesus fucking christ corecucks are slow.

>>11875879
>The only reason we have had "insane productivity growth" after decoupling from sanity (gold standard) is because it's easy to have "insane" (indeed) productivity growth when you don't have to account for the money created out of thin air to finance all the dumb shit that's financed.
no the reason was more simple loaning got much easier. you can say it leads to insanity over time because it's human nature and i can't argue against that. that's why the economy is about to get fucked again between 2020-2022.

>as the hallucination that involves fiat having value ends
i see you still don't get it. fiat has value the same way bitcoin has value. supply and demand. the difference is in small details like trust and authority based dynamic tweaking of supply with fiat and predetermined supply coded into the system with bitcoin.

fiat is more flexible and more stable potentially more useful for everyday transactions. bitcoin is more tamper proof trustless publicly audited but not very practical or useful as currency.

and it's deflationary fundamentals are not helping it one bit. money not participating in the economy is dead weight or a shackle on economic growth. which is why our current system incentivizes you to take risk with your money to keep it participating in the economy via securities so that it doesn't drag it down. the incentive is the interest at or above inflation rate balanced by the risks involved priced by the market in a distributed consensus protocol.

>>11875925
>The backing BTC blockchain will be a handwaving mechanism to distract credulous fuckwits
yeah you lost me there, if you hadwave away the btc blockchain you might as well just make a new shitcoin it would be priced in accordingly.
>Then let's create our own Blockchain of IMF SDR's
again a shitty asset backed crypto scamcoin whatever idea. why can't you people let this go?

>>11875067

It's amazing.
Are there new retards flowing in on the internet every month or is it the same ones?

FIAT MONEY IS INFLATIONARY BY DESIGN.
WHEN THE GOLD STANDARD WAS ENDED FIAT LOST IT'S ANCHOR AND CAN GO TO ZERO AND WILL GO TO ZERO ONE DAY.

Besides. Because they tell you there is X amounts of gold in the world it doesn't mean there is.
Did you or your mom go prospect mine for gold around the whole globe?

1.We don't know how much gold there is.
2.We know how much bitcoin there is and will be.
3.We know what we think is a fair price to pay for something based on supply and demand. Usually time adjusts this price in volatility until an equilibrium is found.

BTC and ETH and other major coins will go back to ATH and higher. FIAT is losing value everyday but everyone seems to cry about BTC losing value.
Once the masses understand that crying with yellow vests on about gas prices or buying useless inflated stocks and bonds won't get them anywhere they will buy the 1 thing that is really decentralized.

I can't believe i didn't read into crypto many years back. This is going to be the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind.

>>11875995
Because that's exactly what BTC is now, and it's --you-- who is not letting it go. You are absolutely right that if x then y where x is if this stupid system is in place, you may as well fucking go elsewhere and create a legitimate one.
X is divorcing the settlement and transaction layers by setting artificial scarcity on ledger tx volume.
Y is every other ledger that doesn't engage in this idiocy.

>>11876007
You know, there is a token tied to gold already on the market. Held by about 180 to 200 accredited investors.

So its a strange sort of microcosm when you start looking at how the wealthy are getting into crypto

>>11876007
>This is going to be the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind.
maybe, but there is absolutely no guarantee that any of the existing coins persist over time. nor to that existing wealth does not transfer to this new cryptopia by gaining more mass and density leaving the majority even poorer than before.

>>11876009
nah, i'm just saying that nobody will accept an ln transaction at face value if there is a possibility that he will not receive the btc on chain. if there is a risk and ambiguity (that's a big if btw) it will be priced in accordingly by the market which means paying via ln would be way too expensive game for anyone to use which means they would have been better off with a coin that is not based on the btc network to begin with.

>>11876038
> means they would have been better off with a coin that is not based on the btc network to begin with.
tfw

>>11875964
>bitcoin is not a currency.

No. You’re misstating our positions. Anyone with a brain in Bitcoin knows damn well that Bitcoin is primarily an asset. What the hell do you think a reserve currency is? It is not a currency used by the common (most) people.

Read John Nash’s Ideal Money to understand it is a more perfect reserve asset that is not subject to fiat control.

>i see you still don't get it. fiat has value the same way bitcoin has value. supply and demand. the difference is in small details like trust and authority based dynamic tweaking of supply with fiat and predetermined supply coded into the system with bitcoin.

The US dollar is precisely what Bitcoin is disintermediating as the future international reserve currency asset. And you can’t see the elephant in your living room of how the nation-states are trapped between giving up their sovereignty to coordinate as a world government in order to regulate Bitcoin or choosing to not regulate and being subsumed by adoption of Bitcoin. The nation-states are being destroyed by this Trojan Horse.

While the stupid goldbugs think the Chinese Yuan will dethrone the dollar, they are completely missing the elephant in their living room which is Bitcoin is in the process of dethroning the dollar as the international reserve currency asset.

China by trying to battle Bitcoin, will simply drive more of their citizens to use VPNs and further subvert the authority of their nation-state.

As the common folk cries about how Bitcoin is dead again, those that matter are accumulating OTC while the low end of the fractal allows for the discount.

>>11876054
this exchange was hilarious.

>>11876101
you're missing that those nation states and central banks already bought bitcoin and will just use it as a more effective financial system to pursue their parasitic goals against their populations in the event that actually happens.

>>11876038
dude that's exactly what he was saying from the beginning baka

How might the return to a gold-pegged dollar impact US exports?

>>11876159
If they're genuinely competitive, good.
If not, bad.
Sound money means you can't make a shit business look like a good one.

It is coming boyz and you better be ready. It is going to be sink or swim and you can come out rich or return to the big M and ask for your job back.

And few coins including BTC stand out the most and have a lot of things built around them. People are sheep they will forget the 20k down to 3k and embrace new highs and new lows. Follow what MSM tells them. And few coins we have today will be there.

>>11876138
no that's not what he was saying. he was saying they would somehow try to get away with it and it would work when it's obvious they can't.

>>11876250
you appear to have totally missed the point ... I'm honestly confused as to what you're not grasping at this stage, you out and out said exactly what would happen as an end result of the tampering in this system, which acknowledges implicitly that it can happen. (which of course it fucking can, it's happened for thousands of years with gold and paper tokens)
What exactly are you remaining confused regarding?

>>11876101
until yuan gets backed by gold and then btc fucks right off

>>11876269
>you out and out said exactly what would happen as an end result of the tampering in this system, which acknowledges implicitly that it can happen.
not exactly i acknowledged that in the (extremely unlikely) event of lightning being able to increase the bitcoins in circulation within the lightning network somehow then coins in the lightning network would worth less to the recipient. transactions wouldn't be accepted at the face value of on-chain btc and prices via ln would get a steep premium. which would lead to little to no adoption of the network. and since every fucking body understanding elementary economy knows this i just can't see this being anyone's endgame.

but the entire idea is pretty absurd. because when you got a single centralized service saying okay here is the ledger joe has 500 tonnes of gol, bob has 90 tonnes of gold, etc... and then joe and bob can trade these paper golds on an exchange, you have no way of verifying if they actually put it in there or that you gonna actually receive any at the end of the day with all the options trading upon options trading.

meanwhile with ln, if you receive a transaction on a channel you can accept it as being true and irrevocable because there are no options on the path no conditional contracts no unclear path of custody. if there was you wouldn't fucking accept the transaction for anything. because this is not a fucking boomer game of trust.

>>11874361
The real question is: Would you anons still FOMO into a new world order cryptocurrency just because it's going to moon for sure even though by doing so you're supporting an evil organization's next step in taking over the world?
Would you faggots sell the world for lambos?

>>11876371
>Would you anons still FOMO into a new world order cryptocurrency
this implies you can
it's extremely unlikely that you can even buy derivatives of it as a private investor.

>>11876349
> in the (extremely unlikely) event of lightning being able to increase the bitcoins
It's a hub and spoke system that requires the vast majority of channels be centralised on a small set of servers, how the fuck more easy could it be to sabotage? You control those servers, you control the tx flows. And blah blah blah HTLC nLockTime multisig bullshit, I know. None of that fucking matters unless you can actually arbitrate the dispute on the blockchain, or that you can see the tampering actually happening, which you fucking can't, because it's not broadcast, and you've been priced out of volume on the blockchain.
And that is the hardest of the three to sabotage, Liquid is enormously easier, simply control a supermajority of the POS nodes on the sidechain, fucking done. And Bakkt is --exactly as easy to sabotage as the historical gold backed paper token model-- because that is literally exactly what it fucking is.
So there's no question of "if this can be done", nor even in fact "will this get done" since you're literally handing the system over to the exact actors who have historically run exactly this fucking scam. The only question is, does the theft of purchasing power by these mechanisms get discovered.
If it doesn't, then the systems in question parasite purchasing power rent free from the honest actors in the system just like the historical gold example.
If it does, the entire system collapses.
Either way, the system is utterly fucked and useless from the perspective of something that is supposed to be able to make the above happening impossible. For that you need an actual legitimate blockchain, which is what you literally just said yourself in your own words.
It's fucking hilarious you're not getting this.

>>11876276
Yuan will never be backed by gold.
China is a notorious currency manipulator.
Why would they hamstring themselves?

>>11876371
I am absolutely cogniscent that if the system actually gets world scale adoption, everyone not in it will be enslaved to those that control it. I have hedges in to cover myself and those I care about to ensure we don't get devoured by said system.
The rest of the world, this is the only fucking warning they get. If they don't listen, fuck them, slavery eternal is what they fucking deserve. I am sick to death of shouting at normies that they're sleepwalking into serfdom only to have them ignore it and loudly complain about it at the same time, typically enacting solutions that just fucking bring them closer to slavery.
You can't save stupid cunts from themselves.

>>11876413
whatever you control, if you got a channel set up, and you give someone a btc that you didn't receive, you gave someone your fucking btc. if he closes the channel and not transacts it back you lost a fucking btc why ever would you do that? man! just to fuck with the system?

>>11876422
What are these hedges that you have set up anon?
I'm interested in how you're going to insulate yourself from such a large scale event.

>>11876413
there is something tho that bothers me about ln... not what you wrote i believe that to be nonsense most part, but something very basic about economy and money.

anyhow what you are saying, about fucking with the system and comex. well any exchange today that you can trade crypto on has the power to fuck with the apparent supply. they can put any number to your screen they want. and yes centralized services carry the risk of abuse. however ln is a system where centralized services can only harm themselves not you by being dishonest. it's pretty clever that way. this is the difference to an exchange or a paypal like sql database layer.

>>11876423
> ignore everything, focus on lightning
Even if you were right about lightning, which you're fucking not although you don't seem to be able to grasp it. Bakkt and Liquid still just allow exactly the same scam. It changes absolutely fucking nothing.
Now --why-- you're wrong about lightning requires you to understand and accept facts about the topology of lightning. Do you understand that as a routed network, the only way it can operate is with centralised hubs? And do you understand that as a --staked-- routed network, this is amplified, that is, the value of routes in the network is concurrent with the total value invested in the hubs they're attached to, which is an even more centralising force?
All of the above is a simple fact.
Now, if you accept that, you have to accept that the people that control those central hubs control the fucking network, it doesn't matter what protocol features insulate you from tampering, because all they have to do is conspire amongst themselves to keep the scam transparent, which they absolutely can, because it's not a broadcast medium and it is opaque. There's no protocol feature you can engineer that will get rid of this topology based vulnerability. It's like trying to defend against a man in the middle attack with an extra challenge response step, once that man in the middle is there, it's game over already. And the topology of the lightning network fucking requires that man in the middle to be there.

>>11876458
> ny exchange today that you can trade crypto on has the power to fuck with the apparent supply.
They can and do get stopped out and go bankrupt when this happens. And that's when they've done it unintentionally because of theft. The legitimate blockchains which they're attached to is the reason they can't hide those facts.
> however ln is a system where centralized services can only harm themselves not you by being dishonest. it's pretty clever that way.
Sorry, this is just complete bullshit.

>>11876448
I've had enough threats from psychos that I know are out for my blood already that I'm not really up for discussing my tactical response to the nightmare scenarios, but I recommend you dedicate significant mental effort to the exercise if you're an intelligent and decent person that doesn't want to be dragged down with the rest of the world when the nightmare scenario unfolds, because if it does these people will have more oversight and power than anyone else in the history of mankind has ever had before, and they are the most wretched psychopathic evil motherfuckers who have ever lived, to boot.
Ain't hard to figure out what they will do with it once they get it.

>>11876493
>Sorry, this is just complete bullshit.
then who me how, make it simple 2 hubs you and me go!

>>11876531
The channel between us is financial backhaul, and it's not visible to the rest of the network, we give it infinite credit in between us, and charge interest on the deficit to the suckers on the last mile channels. We've effectively doubled the money supply and the only way to break the scam is for the child channels to outcapitalise us to the extent they trigger a run on the bank, which in turn will just mean we, as the cunts with the money and the power to issue on chain transactions, stop out our transactions first and discard the shell of the previous entity as it collapses and gets bailed out by shit tier useless normie hapless taxpayer dumb cunts.
Game over.

>>11876563
Watch the lightningbot now say "BUT THEY'LL JUST ROUTE AROUND YOU LOL" totally ignoring your point about the topology of the network.
There's no helping these people. Give up. Come to the dark side.

>>11876531
*show me
you can be bob if you want or alice i have no preferences

>ignore everything, focus on lightning
sorry i thought that was the main point of the discussion, i'm not familiar with other attempts at second layer scaling.
>routed network
if there is only a few large hubs there is no need for routing in the messaging. there is a need to route the payments sure if that's what you meant. but you can pick and choose from the routes you like (cheapest most likely).
>because all they have to do is conspire amongst themselves
yeah trust the other sharks good idea
>And the topology of the lightning network fucking requires that man in the middle to be there.
a man in the middle, yeah that sounds bad and would be bad if you were transmitting a secret. but you are not. and transparency is relative here, you got 100% transparency on the edges of the graph.

but i get it if the routing within ln is arbitrary and determined by the hubs, you might not be offered the most advantageous routes for your transaction. however the barrier to entry for a new hub is extremely low in ln. which means we can expect some serious contest for the customers satisfaction. same thing as with miners and fees a miner that won't collect low fees risks them being scooped up by an other miners. they want to maximize profit so they include transactions with lower fees also. i expect the same behavior in ln except much easier to set up a node and much less risky than mining btc even in a pool.

>>11876563
>The channel between us is financial backhaul, and it's not visible to the rest of the network, we give it infinite credit in between us
there is no credit on a lightning channel. you put btc in on both ends and the total amount of btc can't change only the ownership. and when the channel closes the total amount won't change.
>We've effectively doubled the money supply
no because the same coins are actually locked and non spendable on the btc chain while the channel exists.

please be serious about this. you got my attention give me a real scenario!

>>11876276
low IQ

>>11876126
Bitcoin is still tiny, they haven't bought shit yet. That will come within the next decade as they realize they cannot kill it, only become bigger players than others in the capital B blockchain.

The good news is that you can still be part of the elite for an affordable price, or you can keep crying in the future.

>>11876631
> sorry i thought that was the main point of the discussion, i'm not familiar with other attempts at second layer scaling.
Well you should be, because they're even more promising locations to run this scam than lightning.
> if there is only a few large hubs there is no need for routing in the messaging
Yes there is, it's designed to look like the correspondent banking network, it literally says that in the whitepaper.
> but you can pick and choose from the routes you like (cheapest most likely).
Are you ashamed >>11876596 literally predicted you would say this, or do you still not get that it has no effect?
> however the barrier to entry for a new hub is extremely low in ln
This is wrong, You do not understand the topology of routed staked networks. Do more research.
> same thing as with miners and fees a miner that won't collect low fees risks them being scooped up by an other miners.
All miners can process all transactions
You can only process the transactions of LN customers for whom you have a channel with. The topology is centralised. This is not an accident. It is by design.
> much less risky than mining btc
Lol, yeah, your value as a hub is directly proportional to the amount you're staking, and to stake you must be online and holding that key at a known location for theft. Totally much less risky than running hardware that receives a reward to an offline cold storage address.
I give up. You're doomed. Have fun.

while every moron, moonboy and bottom feeder discusses which bitcoin fork or newly released shitcoin will be the next big thing they totally ignore Smart Contracts and what they bring to the table.
(as seen in this thread).
Fiat funny money won‘t just vanish over night either, in fact they will use a mixture of both thanks to smart contracts.
With smart contracts you can pay and get paid in whatever currency you want, fast and reliable and even on weekends, automatic taxation all happening in the background.
There will be hundreds of different blockchain system for all kinds of stuff all interconnected through smart contracts.
Ever heard about the golden copy? Go read up on that you illiterate niggers.

tl;dr buy chainlink you braindead mouthbreathing abortions

>>11876680
You assume I don't already have a BTC position as a hedge against the nightmare scenario. That would be a pretty stupid assumption. I just have bigger positions in stuff I hope will kill it.

>>11876694
Everybody with half a brain already has chainlink.

>>11876680
>durable
lost 85% of it's value this year

>secure
lots of coins stolen from various exchanges
wallet mining

>easily transactable
huge fees for buying, plus getting raped on taxes

>scarce
so are my dumps, but that doesn't mean they are valuable

>>11876701
Your hopes here don't matter.

>>11876726
And neither do yours.

>>11876723
>lost 85% of it's value this year
That's not what durable means within this context.

>lots of coins stolen from various exchanges
wallet mining
Irrelevant

>huge fees for buying, plus getting raped on taxes
Fees are low. Still insanely cheaper to move than gold even blocks are spammed to full capacity.

>so are my dumps, but that doesn't mean they are valuable

low IQ

>>11876736
I don't need hopes because I have money to transact on chain at any rate.

4chan said "buy btc" in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015
I bought, but I stopped posting for years too
checked it out again and remembered biz exists saw its even better (in terms of sheer blue pills) here than it used to be, kek

>>11876684
>This is not an accident. It is by design.
i agree it's a scaling solution after all. however your assumption that you can lock people in to a few providers is unproveable and unlikely especially as ln at it's core does not differentiate between nodes as hubs and clients. if i want to set up an ln channel with my employer nobody can stop me or whit my favorite shop where is pend 60% of my money. when wallmart is an ln hub or auchan or tesco or amazon or paypal you can obviously choose to go through a single provider with all your transactions but you might not want to. there are advantages to directly transacting and disadvantages obviously.

let the market sort it out man! ln in itself doesn't lead to full centralization only practice can lead to it, so long the centralized service is not abusing it's power. which they can only really do by fees. however the moment they try to, people will immediately find a way to route around them.

>>11876763
That makes two of us.
But when BTC gets raped because the obvious scam takes place, either by purchasing power theft or the collapse of that scam, you will be the one that gets fucked.
Not me.

>>11876771
> your assumption that you can lock people in to a few providers is unproveable and unlikely
Wrong https://medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/mathematical-proof-that-the-lightning-network-cannot-be-a-decentralized-bitcoin-scaling-solution-1b8147650800
> let the market sort it out man!
That's exactly what I'm doing by making the scam clear to brainlets.

>>11876776
>BTC is a scam and will collapse

>>11876684
>Totally much less risky than running hardware that receives a reward to an offline cold storage address.
it is everything stands for mining but you also run the risk of your hashpower inflating away which is removed with you being a hub. it's also a lot simpler to set up really.

but interesting argument against setting up a hub at my own attic. nothing a vpn wouldn't solve of course but there is an opening always.

Schizophrenia the thread

>>11876793
1) that article just contradicted itself nicely (centralized vs distributed graph)
2) our current banking system works just fine on the same layout
3) ln can only be more distributed than what we have and in the current system you have no full custody of your money with ln you have so fuck off with the baseless fud!

>>11874361
HUGE IF BIG

>>11876803
> risk of your hashpower inflating away
That's not a risk, it's a certainty, which all professional miners already account for in their business plans. At any rate, mining isn't a great business in my opinion, it all comes down to a single central question, do you have access to supply chains and super cheap electricity better than say Bitmain? If not, you're not going to out-compete them. Anything you get will be tablescraps compared to what they get. Given that, why not just actually provide goods and services in exchange for cryptocurrency? If you are worth a damn you should make a lot more than you could simply being an admin on mining hardware.
> it's also a lot simpler to set up really.
And as you continuously fail to grasp, of very little value unless you have a very large stake, and if you do have a very large stake, no, it is then very, very risky indeed. On par with running an exchange levels of risk.

>>11876794
> I don't understand anything about what's actually going on so I will just pretend like I do and hope nobody notices.
You are an idiot. I noticed.

>>11876747
COPE

>>11876823
just fucking lol
> 1) that article just contradicted itself nicely (centralized vs distributed graph)
Distributed with large hubs is not "decentralised"
> 2) our current banking system works just fine on the same layout
Our current banking system is centralised. It is also unironically actually better than the world we'll have if BTC attains dominance, because the actors involved have far more limited oversight into what's going on in the economy as well as the ability to parasite from the money flows.
> 3) ln can only be more distributed than what we have and in the current system you have no full custody of your money with ln you have so fuck off with the baseless fud!
You are an idiot.

>>11876848
>>11876833
cope

>>11876872

>>11876852
>Our current banking system is centralised. It is also unironically actually better than the world we'll have if BTC attains dominance, because the actors involved have far more limited oversight into what's going on in the economy as well as the ability to parasite from the money flows.

No, there's no way to parasite anything just because you own a fuckton of BTC, contrary to owning a fuckton of fiat which gives you money back by doing nothing. To make more BTC you must do something of value. That's hard money.

The only way you get "free money" in Bitcoin is when assorted fucktards decide to fork it.

>>11876852
>Distributed with large hubs is not "decentralised"
no it's "decentralized enough"
>Our current banking system is centralised.
from the banks point of view it sure isn't.
>You are an idiot.
you can't prove me wrong then... i see.

got to go boys and girls, i will check in later hope the thread will be alive.

interesting point on the security dude i was looking too much on the cryptographic aspects. an ln hub bank heist is an amazing concept.

>>11876890
if I tried to buy a cup of coffee with BTC it would cost like $50

>>11876918

>>11874701
xd

>>11876890
Way to completely fail to understand the attack he explained. Read the thread again.

>>11875114
>uhm private blockchain as something used within a single organization is worthless a relational database is a billion times more efficient.
imagine being this retarded

>>11874361
>math is not tangible
this guy is a fucking retard

Too lazy to read the thread, so tell me, what is the phoenix coin? SV?

>>11878046
I heard it's XRP

>>11878009
It's intangible by definition retard. Math is abstraction.

>>11878049
I heard It's not.

>>11876007
delete your post before more goons wise up

>>11878059
everything is an abstraction you mongoloid
it's all chemicals in our brain, doesn't make it any less real
you can see fibbonacci patterns in a a fucking flower, how is math not real you dumbass fucking bitch
math is more real and tangible than you are

>>11878049 This. XRP has the best contacts to European- and US-Government. It's literally born out of a Rothschild's think tank.

>>11878049
5 8 9

>>11874361
Central banks coin XRP. Why is this coin staying stable or even pumping when the BTC goes down? They want XRP to 50-70% of BTC. Then with a massive crash and panic the media with banks promote XRP like hell. And voila XRP is the new world currency. Controlled by banks as a centralized coins, high inflation and all the shit we have. Except one more, all transactions public visible. Prepare for it.

New order of barbarians text already had info about it.
https://pastebin.com/cFa6x8M8

I knew about this back at late 2012 or early 2013 when I didnt even knew bitcoin or crypto was a thing and said to myself I would never use digital currencies.
FINANCIAL CONTROL
There was discussion of money and banking. One statement was, "Inflation is infinite. You can put an infinite number of zeros after any number and put the decimals points wherever you want", as an indication that inflation is a tool of the controllers. Money would become predominately credit. It was already ... money is primarily a credit thing but exchange of money would be not cash or palpable things but electronic credit signal. People would carry money only in very small amounts for things like chewing gum and candy bars. Just pocket sorts of things. Any purchase of any significant amount would be done electronically. Earnings would be electronically entered into your account. It would be a single banking system. May have the appearance of being more than one but ultimately and basically it would be one single banking system, so that when you got paid your pay would be entered for you into your account balance and then when you purchased anything at the point of purchase it would be deducted from your account balance and you would actually carry nothing with you.

>>11878531
Also computer records can be kept on whatever it was you purchased so that if you were purchasing too much of any particular item and some official wanted to know what you were doing with your money they could go back and review your purchases and determine what you were buying. There was a statement that any purchase of significant size like an automobile, bicycle, a refrigerator, a radio or television or whatever might have some sort of identification on it so it could be traced, so that very quickly anything which was either given away or stolen - whatever - authorities would be able to establish who purchased it and when. Computers would allow this to happen. The ability to save would be greatly curtailed. People would just not be able to save any considerable degree of wealth. There was some statement of recognition that wealth represents power and wealth in the hands of a lot of people is not good for the people in charge so if you save too much you might be taxed. The more you save the higher rate of tax on your savings so your savings really could never get very far. And also if you began to show a pattern of saving too much you might have your pay cut. We would say, "Well, your saving instead of spending. You really don't need all that money." That basically the idea being to prevent people from accumulating any wealth which might have long range disruptive influence on the system. People would be encouraged to use credit to borrow and then also be encouraged to renege on their debt so they would destroy their own credit. The idea here is that, again, if you're too stupid to handle credit wisely, this gives the authorities the opportunity to come down hard on you once you've shot your credit. Electronic payments initially would all be based on different kinds of credit cards ... these were already in use in 1969 to some extent.

>>11878540
Not as much as now. But people would have credit cards with the electronic strip on it and once they got used to that then it would be pointed out the advantage of having all of that combined into a single credit card, serving a single monetary system and then they won't have to carry around all that plastic.

SURVEILLANCE, IMPLANTS, AND TELEVISIONS THAT WATCH YOU
So the next step would be the single card and then the next step would be to replace the single card with a skin implant. The single card could be lost or stolen, give rise to problems; could be exchanged with somebody else to confuse identify. The skin implant on the other hand would be not losable or counterfeitable or transferrable to another person so you and your accounts would be identified without any possibility of error. And the skin implants would have to be put some place that would be convenient to the skin; for example your right hand or your forehead. At that time when I heard this I was unfamiliar with the statements in the Book of Revelation. The speaker went on to say, "Now some of you people who read the Bible will attach significance to this to the Bible," but he went on to disclaim any Biblical significance at all. This is just common sense of how the system could work and should work and there's no need to read any superstitious Biblical principals into it. As I say, at the time I was not very familiar with the words of Revelations. Shortly after I became familiar with it and the significance of what he said really was striking. I'll never forget it. There was some mention, also, of implants that would lend themselves to surveillance by providing radio signals.

>>11878550
This could be under the skin or a dental implant ... put in like a filling so that either fugitives or possibly other citizens could be identified by a certain frequency from his personal transmitter and could be located at any time or any place by any authority who wanted to find him. This would be particularly useful for somebody who broke out of prison. There was more discussion of personal surveillance.

>>11874361
He isn't wrong when he says shit about the one world government utopia but he is wrong in the sense that crypto let a lot of regular people pull themselves out of debt, make good money and thrive. And these weren't the guys in suits that are the only ones allowed to make real money. These were regular guys that are usually barred by stupid and unnecessary regulations(purposefully stupid and unnecessary) on any kind of trading, from making the money.
So in a sense the fact that crypto was not regulated lat some people make a lot of money.
Now, of course, the "regulators" are ready to step in and make sure that this never happens.
The author of the article was an idiot for not investing in it in 2009 for the same reason that I outlined. He would have made a lot of money and maybe even quit his job and live his life. Instead, he chose to write gloom and doom articles about an asset class that he simply missed.

>>11874413
>those tan lines from a completely different bathing suit
Hnnnnnggggg

>>11878531
>I knew about this back at late 2012 or early 2013 when I didnt even knew bitcoin or crypto was a thing and said to myself I would never use digital currencies.


Some here will ask, why I am here if I never used digital currency?
Because I like to read and theorical side of stuff, I am like those at /tg/ that just keep talking about rpg but never play since they are socially inept.

>>11877944
yeah like where the fuck do they breed your kind...

>>11874413
chainlikn

>>11874806
>screencaping your own reply

>>11878531
>>11878540
>>11878550
>>11878560
okay that's a pretty comprehensive showcase of bonkers rambling conspiracy theorist. just for the record are you a gold bug or a crypto nut?

>>11878972
>crypto nut
>calls some1 crypto nut on /biz/

>>11878987
why not? i call people worse every day here.

>>11875421
He probably means that most people that say they own gold, owe an IOU for gold, not real physical gold.

>>11879067
nah, that's not what i mean that's a totally different story. i know i wrote a lot of shit here but >>11875074
gold is not debt today because gold is a commodity, when it was money it was debt.

>>11879140
The value of gold is completely out of line with its worth as a commodity. It's shiny and in demand for jewlery, but it's industrial uses are very limited.

>>11879201
speculative bubble

>>11877374
Why to completely understand why you both are wrong.

>>11879223
>59 posts by this boomer

I hope they are paying you for that.

>>11878581
>from a completely different bathing suit
>not naked
fucking obviously, brainlet

>>11879201
>gold is completely out of line with its worth as a commodity
its more than average commodity, for the last 3 thousand years its been a primary storage of wealth, up until 50 years ago most currencies were backed by it. now theres 80trillion dollars worth of currency running around backed by nothing and all the gold ever mined is currently worth 6 trillion.

>>11879478
He's not, you're just an idiot.

>>11879494
>14 posts by this zoomer

I hope they are paying you for that.

>>11879570
>core matters
>>11879590
nice vpn goy

>>11879680
> I understand literally fuck all about how the system actually works.
nice cult fuckhead.

>>11879699
>reee why core wouldnt raise the blocksize?

>>11879680
attack me all you like, I'm not the other anon. I don't even have any crypto, I'm a goldbug just watching this shitshow for fun

>>11879494
i'm not a boomer sorry unless a "30yo boomer"

>>11879736
the very fact that core --had to-- choose to raise the blocksize is actually all it took for me to realise BTC had failed and was a waste of time.
Of course, you don't know, understand or accept that, because your sad little cult has it as an article of faith that it's wrong. But that's of zero consequence, because you are wrong.

>>11874571
Microsoft is a private fucking company. Why would banks use their computers when they can simply make their own!?

>>11874361
well, one thing is for certain. US Hegemony is collapsing before our very eyes.

Karabit.com

>>11879788
>bitcoin doesn't do what i want so it has failed and you don't understand it!
imagine

>>11879769
The real shitshow will be seeing goldcucks getting stopped at airports while bitcoin holders cross them carrying millions