/biz/ - Business & Finance

shhh just accumulate in secret

Enigma have a similar product but it has some differences. I dont hold any enigma.

I think both projects have their place. In all reality there are two projects shilling blockchain to companies and a lot of room for growth. Neither needs a monopoly to be hugely successful.

>>11415734
The main difference between the two companies is that one is full of shady Russians with no experience and the other is a team full of brilliant MIT scientists.

>>11415859
>woman in the dev team

not gonna make it

Enigma is the Oraclize of off-chain private computation.

>>11415943
What do you mean by this?

Chainlink just gotta watch out for black hole

>>11415936
This unfortunately

>>11415859

Do you mean an arrogant faggot MILF-horny jew who wants to stick his shithead in any problem and project?

>>11415936
>t. incel

>>11415936
And who is Adelyn Zhou then ? hmmm

Shameless self bump for more technical talk about enigma becoming obsolete with chainlink mainnet launch.

>>11415859
> shady russians with no experience
This is the level of desperation eng tards are on at the moment. The eng team is way better than most crypto teams, but it is clear they have underestimated what sergey and co have done. The off chain enclave stuff is something for them to legitimately fear - and their responses to CL indicate that they are aware of this but are terrible at hiding it.

>>11416506

No offense, but Dero made Enigma obsolete first.

I honestly don't know what Enigma has going for it anymore.

>>11415115
Pic related, Enigma's solution to replacing oracles for fetching outside data is fucking WebAssembly (wasm).

Also notice how they say "intermediaries are bad", while Enigma's entire premise is they're a blockchain you attach to another blockchain to increase privacy.
Lunacy.

>>11416787
no

>>11416165
Not a developer, but nice try.

>>11415115
Pic related, Enigma's solution to replacing oracles for fetching outside data is fucking WebAssembly (wasm).

Also notice how it says "intermediaries are bad", while Enigma's entire premise is they're a blockchain you attach to another blockchain to increase privacy.
Pretty fucking stupid.

>>11416932
To make it work like chainlink you have to write code that says: x number of nodes should fetch data from the same data source and compare the result. the data is only valid if x number of nodes get the exact same result, which is only possible if they fetch the same data, i.e. the correct data.

I'm sure chainlink has some other things going for it. I think that the approach I described can be used for many simple applications, while chainlink might be better when you have a large diversity of data and using many different APIs or something.

>>11416932
Yeah, I sharply exhaled through my nose when I read they were using wasm. They better hope they have some serious tricks up their sleeve that they haven't revealed, or they will be one of the first slain in the great chainlink purge.

>>11416932
>>11417022

Can you explain to a brainlet why this is bad?

>>11417026

(for Enigma) idk what WASM is

>>11417007
The whole Enigma thing is a mess.
They're a full-on blockchain you add to another blockchain for privacy. That's like putting another house on top of your house to insulate your roof.

Chainlink on the other hand uses oracles, which are basically off-chain little nodes that only exist to create consensus on a specific task. This in itself adds privacy (since they're off-chain), plus their privacy can be further improved with hardware enclaves like SGX, which Enigma (the privacy blockchain) also uses for privacy lmao.

Plus, Enigma being a full-on blockchain, they require node consensus on the whole, not just for the smart contracts.

Chainlink is low-threshold, on-demand, lightweight, nimble, focused, ... while Enigma is a lumbering Frankenstein.

>>11417039

Did you mean Frankenstein's monster?

>>11417053
Both work. they are the scientists trying to hobble shit together to make a monster

>>11417060

I like that perspective.

>>11417026
>>11417036
WASM is a web browser solution that makes more involved programming languages like JavaScript more lightweight, making browsing the web faster.

Put it this way: if WASM allows Enigma to forego oracles, then WASM would everyone and everything to forego oracles. And WASM doesn't do this at all.

>>11417022
link also uses wasm for sgx adaptors. it's not a bad thing.

>>11417071

OK thanks.

>>11417075
Of course WASM is a very useful tool, in general it makes JavaScript more lightweight to work with, and thus the parsing of JSON (JavaScript Object Notation).

However, to claim WASM is a direct replacement for oracles, is to pretend having full-on blockchain nodes do consensus work for individual smart contracts is a better idea than using oracles.
Which is simply not true, for the exact reasons oracles exist in the first place.

>>11417026
Wasm and eng aren't terrible on their own, but it's a pretty shitty solution for pulling off-chain data compared to CL's approach.
> wasm cannot directly interact with external data, needs a websocket so requests have to be done up as http requests
> this is a security vulnerability without being any more reliable than something like say, java, which it heavily has its roots in, and is also easier for malicious actors to hide their tracks because it's much more laborious to parse
> any new features added give attackers a new vector of attack which must be accounted for
> at the moment there is no real way of checking the integrity of applications being run on wasm from what I know, could be patched in the future but it has been "soon" for a while
> spec store bypass is a good example of how CPUs can be fucked with through wasm at the moment
> cross-site scripting opens up vulnerabilities for macros and other functions on the platform, which is a really fucking big security problem
There's a few other issues with it, but it essentially puts a layer between eng and any external sources which is quite vulnerable. Eng will try to downplay this because it could technically work if there was no competition, but it's a relatively lacklustre approach for a project whose goals are secrecy and security.

>>11417075
I know it's not that bad - my tone was a big exaggerated - but being wholly reliant on it is not a better solution than what chainlink has in place. It will be their achilles heel if that really is going to be their main approach. Unless they are going to elaborate on how they have managed to make work better with enigma while still being blockchain agnostic, their approach isn't that impressive.

>>11417113
afaik you still have to parse the json, which means there isn't a single step or structure that ENG+WASM would omit or even improve compared to Chainlink.

The logic displayed in this pic: >>11416932
seems to rely on the reader's ignorance of the fact that Enigma is itself an added layer, an intermediary.
And a much less efficient one than oracles.

AAAAAAHHHHHHH !!!!!

>>11417158
> afaik you still have to parse the json, which means there isn't a single step or structure that ENG+WASM would omit or even improve compared to Chainlink.
Yep, this is also correct!

Just to make it clear to eng holders - I still think eng is a good project for what it has going on-chain, but I find their attempt at overreaching into making casual claims as a solution to the oracle problem is a bit out of character and something you should be cautious of. Their team isn't stupid so it seems to be some kind of weird / disingenuous attempt at posturing rather than them actually being incompetent.

>>11417191
he is just responding to questions by desperate link holders in the enigma telegram

>>11417158
as i understand it, this year will launch the protocol on the eth chain enhancing their smart contracts with privacy and scalability for the chain with offchain computation with their nodes
2020 is when their own chain will launch with their own version of smart (secret) contracts.
perhaps replacing eth.

>>11417207
That really isn't an excuse for trying to larp as a substitute for a decentralized oracle platform, because they're misleading eng holders as well. They need to bring more than wasm to the table - if they can come up with something really clever and unique I'll gladly increase my stack of it.

>>11417254
Why couldn't enigma nodes just function as oracles though? If they just used some kind of reputation system along with some kind of staking mechanism, wouldn't that btfo link? I don't understand why enigma couldn't do anything link does. Help a brainlet out.

>>11417231
>with offchain computation with their nodes
Please explain more.
By "their" nodes, do you mean ENG nodes? Because anything those nodes do is "on-chain" by default. That's what makes them nodes.

>2020 is when their own chain will launch with their own version of smart (secret) contracts.
>perhaps replacing eth.
That changes nothing. This still involves blockchain nodes doing smart contract consensus.
There's a reason oracles exist at all; because having blockchain nodes doing smart contract consensus is a lot less efficient than using oracles.

ENG being an independent chain with its own smart contract language just makes it another in a long list of "ETH killers". If that works out, then more power to them. But it's hardly an innovation, like a dedicated decentralized oracle network is.
WASM would not allow ENG to do anything unique, if WASM allowed ENG to natively fetch external data, it would allow every blockchain to do just that. And this is simply not the case.

It just looks like ENG is trying to cash in on the emerging oracle/smart contract hype by retroactively shoehorning this functionality into their system.

>>11417284
>Why couldn't enigma nodes just function as oracles though?
Because of all the reasons why oracles exist in the first place.

Here's a good explanation by Vitalik:
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/22/ethereum-and-oracles/

If you did not know exactly why a "decentralized network of oracles" is such a brilliant idea, prepare to have your mind blown.

>>11417284
Because see that's the thing - with wasm technically they *could* serve that function, but the question you should ask yourself in this situation is - is it better than chainlink? The argument which I'm putting forward is that for enigma to be the better option, it has to essentially bring the same level of tamper-proof reliability to the table for it to be feasible and I just don't think it does from what they have said so far. Rep + staking helps once the data gets past the wasm side of things, but having wasm alone is still a weak link regardless of what comes after. Who knows - they could have a surprise to throw at link during the upcoming talks, but link could have some tricks as well. Which it might not even need because end-to-end it's incredibly secure and modular as is.

>>11417306
This was a really good read. I can't believe I've never seen it before. Thanks.

>>11417287
whelp it's getting confusing, on their own chain they will use multi-party computation accross multiple nodes and a scalable amount of nodes depending on network demand
for now they will use eth chain and off chain solution node computation with sgx and whatever ocean protocol are working on probably (enigma+ocean are partnered already)
this upcoming talk we may see all 3 working together which would be awesome.

>>11417306
!!!!!!
this part is what enigma are working on
>The scheme can also be augmented with secure multiparty computation protocols so the contract can even contain private information (something that would take efficient and secure obfuscation to work directly on Ethereum)

>>11417039
you need to understand why the millionaire problem and homeomorphic encryption is important, which kind of use cases it solves, how it changes our society, to fully grasp enigma

Enigma is a security layer for the Internet as a whole. Imagine your google searches being handled by enigma nodes in a way that is both decentralized and private, where it is possible to prove that you own your data.

>>11417404
>>11417462
I'm sure Enigma has its merits, but it's by no means a substitute for an oracle network.

>>11417503
The central question is whether it is cheaper to use chainlink than it is to build something similar yourself.

A similar question with Enigma is, can you just encrypt the data and let single trusted nodes do the computation without the Enigma network?

There will be situations where:
1) Blockchain systems fetch data from API without using chainlink
2) Blockchain systems utilize encryption and privacy without using enigma

It is just weaker and more specialised use cases. If you need a general use case, then you use Enigma or Chainlink.

Lol how did biz make these 2 competitors? Completely different projects...
Enigmas logo is a 4D cube btw

>>11417462
This needs to be stickied
Eng is a paradigm shift while link is a consensus API app

>>11416061
>t. cuck

>>11417577
as you see with faceberg and most things, single entities can't be trusted with anything
enigma is the real /biz/ moonshot

>>11417577
>The central question is whether it is cheaper to use chainlink than it is to build something similar yourself.
That's a nobrainer.
You can even set up your own via a user-friendly gui for literally nothing.

>>11417816
But your application needs LINK tokens, which can make it more expensive. Your application also needs to run on Ethereum which is currently quite slow.
In some instances you will trust the API-source or use digital signatures to attach to data and that data becomes verifiable. In those instances I am not sure you need ChainLink.

>>11418100
>But your application needs LINK tokens, which can make it more expensive.
You can run nodes with zero Link too.

>In some instances you will trust the API-source or use digital signatures to attach to data and that data becomes verifiable
You're missing the point of oracles entirely.
Oracles are NOT about making the source data itself more reliable.

>>11417643
>Eng is a paradigm shift
A privacy dapp platform.
Wow, much paradigm shift.

>link is a consensus API app
Like Bitcoin is a consensus hashing app.

>>11415859
So I guess what you’re saying is this will play out exactly like Ethereum v. Cardano?

>>11418121
> Oracles are NOT about making the source data itself more reliable.

In the ChainLink white paper they do mention this aspect and it is about collecting data from multiple separate sources and comparing the result.

Chainlink is an interface with APIs. If you can build the interface yourself, then do it and you will be more flexible. Using the ChainLink network will make you less flexible but that is enough for most applications, perhaps.

>>11418121
you missed his point on the second comment. A signed API means that the data came untampered with from that specific API... the point of Chainlink is to make sure that data came untampered from a specific API.

If your centralized oracle got compromised and tried to alter signed data, the smart contract would reject it.

>>11418211
Oracles are NOT about making the data sources themselves decentralized and/or more reliable.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding.

Read up on the basics please, start here:
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/22/ethereum-and-oracles/

>In the ChainLink white paper they do mention this aspect
As a result of Chainlink. The way roads started changing when motorized vehicles came into use.
But changing roads is not what cars do.

>it is about collecting data from multiple separate sources and comparing the result
This has nothing to do with how oracles work, but how they're organized.

>>11418233
>the point of Chainlink is to make sure that data came untampered from a specific API
That's only one aspect of what oracles do.
Read up on the basics please, start here:
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/22/ethereum-and-oracles/

I don't see any need for Enigma if chainlink succeeds. They do everything enigma does except with and decentralized oracle network as the foundation

i hold both, interested in seeing how they fare with their development.

all i wanted to say is that for a brainlet like me, the discussion here was very helpful. thanks for not making another shillfest shitposting fiesta anons

Good discussion

>>11415115
I dont get it, it sounds like theyre working together from the pic in this tweet
https://twitter.com/chainlink/status/1051857621777559552

>>11418613
Chainlink and ENG could very well complement one another. It would make a lot of sense.

Enigma is a big scam. They first started with a project called catalyst and all of a sudden they became a secret smart contract company and buzzword buzzword company.

what the fuck happened to catalyst?

plus Their scammer Turkish cofounder has a criminal record of scams after scams in Turkey.

google ciftlikbank

>>11418688
they were always working on enigma and catalyst, they have two teams working separately
that fat teenage roach has nothing to do with enigma, i don't know where you got that from

>>11418688
this is wrong. the white paper from 2015 describes secret contracts. catalyst was just one application

>>11418613
These are two separate talks. Not Eng v Link.
Chainlink one is beside the toilets.

>>11420313
yes, this is always the case

>>11417577
>1) Blockchain systems fetch data from API without using chainlink
nice fud

>>11420358
it is not fud my friend... you just haven't thought of all use cases