/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>11306799

>VeChink still worth almost a billion

Yep, we're still in a bubble. When that absolute garbage goes to zero is when we finally have corrected.

>>11306799
Now entering 1999.

>>11306799
yes! bitcoin has failed but blockchain is the future! also my memory only has a capacity of 3 years I forget everything older than 3 years

>>11306799
Little difference is that crypto started at 0 and not at 250b

>>11306799
>>11306834

fucking noobs

the only "coin" that stands a chance is Stellar Lumen but thats only if IBM actually estabilishes a "standard" for blockchain database on the Stellar network and even then the value of the token is doubtful even if the network takes off and rule the world as a superior blockchain database.

>>11306799

>muh blockchain good cryptocurrency bad

>>11306872
fucking pro with only argument being a literal shill meme pic for noobs to buy 2017 bags.. just.

>>11306799
>The future of blockchain is in the history recording, unhackable databases, IDs and identity proof, voting..
all of those things are pointless on a blockchain that has no proof of work hashrate providing security. what good is your voting blockchain when russia 51% attacks it? blockchain requires economic incentive for the security of it all. bitcoin as cash provides that incentive to mine

Just wait some years until USD and EUR shit themselves and see how BTC 'failed'

>>11306910
this is where techn like Stellar comes in. The database needs to spread out as much as the internet is making 51% attack impossible even if an entire continent comes together and tries to fuck it.

>>11306907
>>11306885

>he literally thinks stellar lumens will beat bitcoin
>he has no argument with the information presented other than he doesn't like it

opinion gracelessly discarded.

>>11306799
>>11306834
The dotcom "bubble" has recovered and approximately 6xed in value from the bubble highs. Crypto moves much quicker because it's a 24/7 market, and traders have more experience with technology. $5T market cap by 2025 at the latest.

>>11306799
>Banks already on to their own blockchain and tokenizing dollars will render btc and shitcoins underground and obsolete.
come now how would tokenizing dollar change it's fundamental properties? how would it change the fundamental properties of btc? you are a stupid nigger cunt.

We will see bros.. we will see. I hold muh cones but lost literally the last drop of faith. To me.. it doesnt even fucking matter. We are entering new era of human evolution where a personal AI assistent nanobots in your blood repair and keep your body living forever, UBI and traveling/living on other planets become reality.

in 20 years nobody will even fucking remember bitcoin... maybe a brief history check in the elementary school as they do with the first computer or radio.. whatever.

>>11306983

>lost literally the last drop off faith
then sell and fuck off. let someone else have your bitcoin for cheap.

>>11306872

Can someone give an example of the Dr / Cr split for bank creating money in this memepic?

I thought it was basically - Mr Cuck comes along and puts his $100 of his wagies into the bank.

Dr Cash reserves - $100
Cr Creditors - $100

Bank then loans out 90% of Mr Wagie's cash since they only have to keep 10% reserve:

Cr Cash - $90
Dr Debtors - $90

Then you'll be left with

Assets
Cash - $10
Debtors - $90

Liabilities
Creditors (mr wagie) - $100

BUT then the cuck who took out a $90 loan with Mr Wagies cash deposits it into his account with the same bank

Dr Cash reserves - $90
Cr Creditors - $90

Now we have

Assets
Cash - $100
Debtors - $90

Liabilities
Creditors (mr wagie + 2nd wagie) - $190

Then repeat this process a million times and you basically result in money being made from nothing and inflation

>>11307022
>money being made from nothing
that's a misunderstanding money is not made of nothing it represents liability. basically a promise of future performance. money always has been just that and nothing more.

>>11307361

good goy, please don't even think about looking behind the curtain. i'll let it slide this time.

>>11307397
no seriously if you put memeing aside when you take out a loan you borrow prosperity from your own future. that's what you do literally. it's not made up of nothing, it's proof an obligation.

>>11307413
*proof of an obligation

>>11307433
>>11307413

alright bro, memeing aside? how dense are you not to understand that the sort of debt that the central bank issues is not the same as a two-party debt obligation between a retail customer and their bank. i mean holy shit at first i thought you were trying to reduce it to a metaphor but you've got to be one dense motherfucker if you can't see that they're two different kinds of liabilities. one is counterparty. the fed has no counterparty. that's the point. dear god.

>>11307456
>>11307456

or more accurately speaking, when the fed issues american debt to the american people (google who owns most of the debt, it's not china, it's america itself) it's creating money, then creating a liability that the american government must pay back to it. the fed then absolves itself of counterparty risk, because if the american government can't pay, they print more money to cover it. then the fed can literally airdrop money in the form of quantitative easing or hike up rates to make money off the money they created by overnight interbank loans, aka the discount window. thus they get all of the asset side of the debt and transfer all of the liability to the american government, who is its own counterparty, once again, and who simply can print more to cover it.

please, read an economics textbook.

>>11306885
retard

>>11307022
>Bank then loans out 90% of Mr Wagie's cash since they only have to keep 10% reserve:
This is where you get it wrong
10% reserve means they keep wagie's 100 and lend 1000
Yeah they lend money they don't have

>>11307456
wait who was talking about central banks at all? this is the first time it is mentioned. who is the retard now?

>>11307601

that's what the picture that i posted that the other guy replied to is about, dumbass. it's literally about how our money supply is manipulated out of thin air with unsustainable debt and inflation levels that are hidden by the fed (for now) and how bitcoin as a monetary vehicle doesn't suffer from any of that.

>who is the retard now
you. still you.

>>11307690
>Can someone give an example of the Dr / Cr split for bank creating money
the central bank doesn't create money the banks do that actually.

>>11307690
>you. still you.
man you don't understand shit about money and banking, you got some nerve you cheeky cunt.

>>11307560
So there are countries with no reserve requirements (0% ). Acc to the "experts" on /biz/ a bank in canada could lend out 100 million with a 1 dollar deposit.

That makes no sense. The so called reserve multiplier is a myth and made obsolete by other factors such as capital requirements and in general interest rates for inflation.

>>11307722
>>11307733

>he doesn't know about open market operations

stay woke, goy. you're beyond saving.

>>11307798
that's probably because reserves are pointless so long the banking system and peoples attitude towards loans are healthy. it's just a drag on the system. like i said before money is not an actual thing it's just a promise of future performance. that is why you can trade it for services because anyone you give your fancy fungible iou to knows he will be able to in the future exchange it to services he requires. if money is given in return of past present of future performance matters not at all. these things are not magically different you just move the burden of risk around.

>>11307818
dude, that's just something they do in the us to tinker with interest rates (which is what central banks actually do).

>>11307860
>>11307860

yeah. "tinkering."

>>11307869
dude, it's what the central bank is there for. that doesn't mean they create money the way banks do. they control the available supply. please try to grow a braincell and understand! in my country it's not even the central bank that issues or trades gov bonds anyhow. so there goes your idiotic idea that you found something universally evil.

>>11307891

>controlling the available supply is not the same thing as creating money

wowee wow wow that's some mighty good doublethink juice you got there, think i could have some?

>>11306872
>if the supply is scarce the price can only go up!

>>11307891
the other interesting fact is that the different between money and government securities is minimal. you can't use gov bonds to bus shit in a store and you don't get interest on money. but both are debts, proofs of obligation of future performance. when you trade one to the other you don't actually create or destroy anything. and this is the important part. what it does is it changes the available money supply to the people. that's like putting the family money in a safe and taking it out when needed.

>>11307929
well it's obviously not the same shit nigga. basically nobody creates money. money is just a specific form of debt. you transform and trade various forms of obligations though your life. and money represents some of it.

>>11306799
The fact is that most on here are autistic NEETs who want a shortcut to making it, a quick fix for their utter failure to provide anything useful to anyone in real life.

The creators of cryptocurrencies pray on the type of people that you see on /biz/. These ICOs, chink coins shilling vague "partnerships" and cyberphunk "down with the banks" crap is extremely appealing to the socially dejected.

>>11307938

dis nigga over here arguing against supply and demand.

>>11307966

i'm done with you you're a dumb fuck. it was hilarious tho thx for the memeries.

>>11308001
you don't seem to comprehend that everything you think money is it's not. your ideas of money are fundamentally wrong your notion of what banks and central banks do is absolutely wrong as a matter of consequence.

and you fail to see the real criminal act in all of this... that's the sad part, since you don't understand any of it you think the system is evil. but the truth is there is only one part that is evil. the government taking on liabilities in your name without your consent without regard of your assessment of the risks and outlooks based on your future performance the taxes. which are also compulsory. that's the criminal shit in all this. but it has nothing to do with how money is created altho it affects things in the entire economy and monetary system of course.

>>11306799
fucking idiot

>>11306799

>>11307798
>The so called reserve multiplier is a myth and made obsolete by other factors such as capital requirements and in general interest rates for inflation.

WOW, you could not be more incorrect. Fractional reserve banking is not a myth. A bank in the United states can take a loan from the FED which literally makes money appear from thin air, and loan that out to customers at 10:1 with a higher interest rate than they got from the FED. Or take one to meet their reserve requirements as they use their customers money to perform 10:1 loans at mucher higher interest than they pay people to store the money. This is what CAUSES inflation you retard.

>>11306991
Yeah, who the fuck remembers TCP/IP anyway?

>>11306935
Look up bail insurance. USD and Euro will continue as franken beasts

>>11311196
Bail-ins*

>>11307361
its literally called FIAT money you dense motherfucker
yes, it is made from nothing. when a bank gives you a credit, the numbers that will appear on your bank account do not represent anything that existed before - they dont transfer that sum to your account, they simply make ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fiat !!!) it appear.
the only rule to stop everything going haywire is the reserve quota which forces them to actually hold 10% of what they are """"""lending"""""" people (read: creating out of nothing and then getting interest on that sum) - but keep in mind that since EVERYTHING is debt (currencies literally start with a central bank giving out a loan to the country that issues the currency, which is why we have exponentially rising world debt in the first place), the same money circulates many times.
loanes are used to pay for stuff - so the money that was made out of thin air gets into someones pocket, and a quota of that will on average be deposited, where it can again be leveraged (possibly by a different bank) to create more money out of thin air which then circulates again.
we are and always will be in a gigantic ponzy scheme.
all currencies, ALL currencies are with mathematical certainty forced to go to zero eventually - and after the crash (= erasing of debt) get replaced with a new currency which again will go to zero eventually.
i dont get people crying about pump & dump in crypto when everything besides physical gold&silver coins is the same thing - the pump of the dollar for instance just happens to take several generations, but it is still a pump&dump.

>>11311424
please nigga i can't take so much mike malloney bulshit on one day.

>>11311424
>when a bank gives you a credit, the numbers that will appear on your bank account do not represent anything that existed before - they dont transfer that sum to your account
but here is the post you replied to, and what you think you are contradicting somehow:
>that's a misunderstanding money is not made of nothing it represents liability. basically a promise of future performance. money always has been just that and nothing more.
you are not contradicting shit you are just plain ass wrong and have no reading comprehension.

>>11308201
This guy knows.
>>11308001
This faggot is a teenager who thinks he's discovered some ebul conspiracy.

>>11311424
also to address your foolish presumption that gold money is any different from banknotes in nature the only difference is basically gold has an inflexible supply that can not scale to demand and thus cause problems on that side. however since currency is flexible in supply it can cause problems on the supply side if some retards are overdoing it. you gonna have problems either way but one you can actually handle with responsibility the other is just a fucking physical limitation.

also consider this: there are countries on this world that can mine gold but most can't. so you are saying those countries that can't mine gold should not have the right to issue money equivalent to their economic growth, but others that are more lucky can issue new money to their liking? that you find fair? what a fucking retarded notion man... every country has the right for sovereign money that they don't have to pay an other country to provide for them with goods and services.

>>11312572
>also consider this: there are countries on this world that can mine gold but most can't. so you are saying those countries that can't mine gold should not have the right to issue money equivalent to their economic growth, but others that are more lucky can issue new money to their liking? that you find fair? what a fucking retarded notion man... every country has the right for sovereign money that they don't have to pay an other country to provide for them with goods and services.
And this is where Bitcoin comes in.

>>11312564
actually there is an entire subculture that is built around this myth that "this or that creates money out of thin air to fuck with us".

they don't understand any of it truly. and they somehow think gold was good money. i have no idea why they think that, but it was the best they could do at the time. we moved on end of story. but even then gold coins represented a fungible form of debt a promise of future goods and services. and even back then there was inflation. it's a lie that inflation set in with fiat money. we have recorded cases of inflation and insane price hikes and devaluation of gold from ancient afrika. when kung musa took a trip to egypt i think that was a quiet funny episode. he threw around so much gold it caused a mass inflation. funny that the richest person ever was a nigger.

>https://www.businessinsider.com/mansa-musa-the-richest-person-in-history-2016-2

>>11312580
yeah and i would argue that both bitcoin and gold are fiat money. because they only have value tomorrow because of peoples faith in them having value tomorrow and the day after and so on. if people wouldn't believe bitcoin or gold will have any value a year from now they would drop it like a hot potato. it always comes back to faith. there is no money without faith because there is no purchasing power without faith.

now some fuckers have more faith in gold than the usd and i can't really blame them for that. but you are not supposed to hoard money. that is the entire reason we switched to paper money and deliberately inflate the supply. because for the economy to grow money needs to be transacted not hoarded. yes that simple you don't fucking hoard money it's against the monetary system. so when you cry about that your money loses value over time if you just hoard it know that you are a fucking retard.

money is debt but it's debt with zero risk (if you have it in your hand) and zero interest. the system needs you to hoard debt that has risk and interest (the two is always correlating). that is how you hoard wealth today not by stuffing dollar bills under your pillow. that's bullshit.

>>11306799
You don't understand the technology. We already have had history recording, IDs and identity proof for voting, untamperable ledgers. It's the decentralized nature of Bitcoin that makes it valuable.

>>11312642
>decentralized nature of Bitcoin
kek that's a whole other story, bitcoin was decentralized back in the days, but i'm not convinced it can be called that anymore.

>>11306799
We have a 200 trillion dollar debt time bomb that's ready to explode . No sane person will trust the banks again after the next crash. Normies will adopt blockchains after they lose all their shit for the second time in 10 years.

>>11312699
alright but we have these gov issued cryptos like the petro... and basically they are not in any way batter than fiat. i mean the venezuelan government could in theory only sell oil in exchange of petros, but say in the future you have all these petro coins that represent the barrels of oil venezuela has in reserve but they sell it for yuan or rubels or usd. and there is nothing in crypto that can prevent that fuckers so asset based cryptos are basically retarded. still you see them popping up every day.

if a mathematical algorithm decides the amount of a certain crypto in circulation at least then the adopters are free of the fuckery of any issuer. however there is no way discovered to make this supply flexible in a good way that is not subject to central authority or third party manipulation. so we are kinda fucked with crypto.

>>11312699
>debt time bomb that's ready to explode
you also have a super vulcano ready to obliterate half your continent. why worry about debt that you can always inflate away?