/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>10365377
this

and price of stock is independent of quarterly profits. bad PR for example can create lower stock price

You technically still have your % vote in the company

>>10365400
>price of stock is independent of quarterly profits

>>10365377
Dividend are the bread and butter of company, if you give us 5k, we will give you back 2% each year. That's how the company get new markets. If they were to stop giving dividend the investors would sell and leave hence leaving the company ruined. stock of said company increase because of a forseable good future for the company, if you think the company will do well then it will get new markets and expend, hence getting bigger her shares will atract more investors, making the price higher, making your stock worth more.

If you invest in a gambling tier chinkstock, you will get gambling tier chinkreturn.

whatever might be the market, be it crypto or stocks or cfd etc... "a potential great future for a sector or a company doesnt always translate to a great future for the investors". (bc the stock shares got so high they got no where else to go).
and about the stock valuation it's not just fucking gambling, it take in valuation the company debt/funds/sector/potential growth/short term/long term view and hundreds other factors into complex equation determining the risk of each one, before getting a cent precise price. Ofc if the price is too high for the investors during the ipo it will go down. Market is always right.

With crypto you can make data models of how much people will be using it, how much they're going to spend and calculate what the token price should be. Trading stocks is as bad as trading freshly harvested baby brains

retail investors traditionally bought bonds. Stocks became a thing once electricity was invented. Stocks are riskier than bonds. Some stocks pay a dividend, some don't. Many companies start without a dividend and then start paying one later once they get bigger and generate more cash. Companies can issue more shares to raise cash.
There are also preferred shares, which pay dividends.
people also sell shares to produce income for themselves in lieu of a dividend.

>>10365472
more about the
>UHHR FUCKING GAMBLE.
Tell me what gambling get you 7% year every year for hundred year.
I'll wait.

fuck off commie

>>10365493
>Some stocks pay a dividend, some don't
Explain to me how a market can exist for a stock that does not pay a dividend.

>>10365533
The company invest the dividend return into buying new stuff and investing into new markets, Making the news, attracting new investors etc... making the price higher

>>10365377

My meme vanguard ETF pays 7-8% dividend. I live off the meme dividends and don't have to work.

>>10365472
>sell and leave hence leaving the company ruined
These shares are floating around in the secondary market, and they don't put the company in debt, so why would the company be affected? After the IPO why should the company even give damn?

>>10365559
which one.

>>10365556
Still not answering the underlying issue. Without a guarantee of dividends, from what comes the value of the stock other than a foolish buyer who wants it because society told him to "invest" in the stock market?

>>10365645
>Without a guarantee of dividends, from what comes the value of the stock

Growth.

>>10365377
I somewhat agree. However, Investment of equity (not necessarily in the stock market) is absolutely necessary. Especially if lenders aren't willing to provide funds to individuals/organisations.

However, it's silly to view ourselves as "investors" when we buy a few shares of well-established companies. Unless you own an amount of shares which forces Company management to pay attention to your opinion, you're not really an Investor, imo. But anyone can certainly use investment principles (like fundamentals) for decision making in how to allocate their money.

The idea behind investing in non-dividend paying stocks is that as a Partial Owner of a company, you're investing in something which is (ideally) keeping its cash to expand operations/pay bills so that it can continue operating. As it expands, it should be making more cash, and therefore, becoming a more valuable business. The business may distribute dividends to owners one day, when it has excess cash reserves.

The alternative to viewing the stock market from an Investing perspective is to view it as a Ponzi. Indexing is essentially treating the market like that, where you put your money into this thing, and 30 years later, there's magically some new money. I don't buy into this "investing in a country" bullshit. But I understand that people don't have the know-how or time, or confidence in Active Management, to not put their money into Indexing approaches.

>>10365645
why don't you do your own research instead of bugging us? You sound so stupid, you know that? Apple only starting paying again in 2012.
btw, shares represent ownership in the company. Buy enough shares, and you can force the company to pay a dividend!

>>10365559

>he doesn't know about taxes

your in for a surprise come tax time sweetie.

>>10365663
One trend that really annoys me though is the growing amount of Scientific talent that gets drawn to the stock market by the large salaries/bonuses.

If you have analytical ability in those fields, you should be using your knowledge to be productive. Society will honor you for this, rather than despise you for wasting you wasting your talent.

Don't fuck around with HFT microwave signals/cabling, fighting over Arbitrage opportunities, and having the fastest order modification ability. Find better ways of imaging living organic tissue that is less harmful, in terms radiation damage/mutation. If we could find better ways of doing this, we could make screening for cancers so much easier, and therefore, more frequent. Resulting in picking it up early, giving someone the best chance to treated before things get worse. Stuff like that.

If I had the ability some of these folks did, making money through financial would be the last of my goals.

>>10365588
legit retarded.
I'll break it down for you retard wall street meme picture posting autist. (Even though 70% of trading is done In HFT).

Some genius got an idea, he decide to sell his shit ans start the company, he still need a LOT of money. He decide to go see an investment BANKING firm to help him and raise the money, there is many way an investor can raise the said money, LBO, IPO etc...
he decide to do an IPO, for every 100 dollars received investors will receive 0,1% of the company.

(TYRONE/ABDULil' (abdullah brother)/THE VIRGIN AND CHAD) each buy a 25 shares. thats $2.5k each.
The Boss raised 20K, he invest in truck, the company keep investing the money and decide to pay it's owners (share holders) for their loyalty.
Everything rolls and shit but the company is getting real big now. It need more money, Investors heard of this company and want in, The stock of share got used, the company is now totally privatly owned, If the company need more money, it produce more stocks, (it deluded them) The stock price keep rising and the company bring in more money, everyone is happy.
>>10365645
read it retard

>>10365712
Don't talk out your ass. R&D is tedious, soul-crushing, nepotic, and wholly unappreciated. Do you remember the person who invented flash memory? He didn't even receive a promotion and the company claimed all the intellectual property.

The only tangible pursuit in our careers is money to free us from those very careers

>>10365662
so how does growth put money in the shareholder's pocket?

>>10365377

It’s a little different because if you own enough shares you get control of the company. Large shareholders have power over the decision making process and can force out directors and execs who fuck up the company. The ability of people to buy your shares and gain power over a company that way is what makes it valuable. Also, shares prices are typically based off measurable, quantifiable traits like market cap, income, profit, etc.

>>10365789
I understand how shares are valued. What I don't understand is why shares are valued. Its not like I can go to the company and force them to give me 0.1% of their assets in exchange for my shares.

>>10365778

The shareholders hold that much of the company’s assets. It’s a fucking brainlet idea to ask “If I own 1/1,000,000th of a $1,000,000 company, how much should my shares be worth?”

>>10365799

But you can sell them to another shareholder who had a large number of shares to increase their ownership stake, and therefore power, over the company’s decision making process. Or you can sell them to another person. It’s not just greater fool theory because there is something measurable backing those shares: the value of the company itself. Smallscale share holders (aka the average investor) are largely just along for the ride and you’re right about that.

>>10365712

They should be out there making stepford wives for all of us to buy. Make the world a better place

>>10365841
>>10365812
>It’s not just greater fool theory because there is something measurable backing those shares
But if you can't even claim the "something measurable" that backs those shares does it really count? In what scenario can you trade your shares for the assets of the company?

>>10365778
If I buy a share at $100 and later sell it for $110, I have pocketed a $10 profit. C'mon. This isn't rocket science.

>>10365911
HOW IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT THAN INVESTING IN FINE ART

>>10365961
Its no different from any investment, what are you on about?

>>10365377
The difference is that stock is an actual ownership in a company, so if you get enough you can force whatever you want.
Different from the ico model in which there are no obligations to owners at all. It's a disgusting model, necessary only by onerous regulations that banned direct share sales.

>>10365773
I am naively idealistic. And yes,Science (and I assume it's the same in industry) is full of people not getting the recognition they deserve until many decades later, if at all. Another example of that happening, in addition to yours, was the understanding of the how DNA is structured.

I understand that the money is most likely better (for less work, anyway) in Finance. But surely there was an underlying reason as to why you, or any other intelligent person, got into the field you did, other than the money.

If money wasn't an issue, would you work in a scientific field?

>>10365858
Exactly. NASA, or whoever, needs to get down to making Joi. I want some BRAAP Methods in those Fetish classes too.

>>10366000
>what are you on about?
IF THERE AREN'T PEOPLE WHO WANT TO OWN SHARES FOR THEIR OWN SAKE, NOT AS AN INVESTMENT BUT AS A THING YOU OWN FOREVER LIKE A BEAUTIFUL PAINTING, THEN HOW CAN THERE BE A MARKET FOR THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE? AND DON'T FUCKING TELL ME YOU OWN A PERCENTAGE OF THE COMPANY'S ASSETS. YOU DON'T OWN SHIT THEY DON'T OWE YOU SHIT.

>>10366077
Because people are being told that that's a way to build retirement and so that's what people do to get to retirement. People want gains and don't see anything fundamentally wrong in buying stocks. People buying stocks want to make a profit and thats why people invest in anything. If you buy a painting because you like it and want to hang it on your wall for the rest of your life, then you're a consumer not an investor as the purpose isn't profit. What's so hard to get about all this?

>>10365961
Art doesn't grow.

>>10365400
>and price of stock is independent of quarterly profits.

God you are fucking stupid

>>10366116
Why does Michael Steinhardt, jewish billionaire and former hedge fund trader, have 50% of his net worth in art?

>>10366104
so this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory AKA it's a fucking meme

>>10365588
HAHAHAHAH BIZ IS FUCKING DUMB

>>10366145
He likes paintings instead of gold, I guess.

>>10366153
Ofcourse it is, but why does that matter?

>>10366153
Civilization itself is just a ponzi scheme my dude, do you think agriculture soil is going to keep paying "dividends" in the form of nutrients to grow food?

OF COURSE NOT, it will deplete then we all starve to death

>>10366224
>why does that matter?
fuck

>>10366224
how is that sustainable. how can that last.

>>10365645
All companies will one day be bought out, or go bankrupt. When a company gets bought out, the buying company has to something about the shareholders of the acquired company, which is basically trade the investors stock of the acquiring company or pay them cash above market value. If a company goes bankrupt the assets are liquidated and sometimes shareholders receive money after debts are paid. Non-dividend stock valuations are just speculation about the probability and value of the aforementioned events (or that they may begin to produce dividends).

OH GOD YES. NOW I SEE. THE STOCKS DON'T HAVE ANY VALUE IN AND OF THEMSELVES. IT'S THE ACT OF TRADING THE STOCKS, THAT SUDDEN HIGH OF HAPPINESS AND ADRENALINE YOU GET WHEN YOU BUY AND SELL, THAT IS WHY THE STOCK MARKET EXISTS. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW. AT LAST I SEEEEEE

>>10366300
Oh. That makes sense and answers my questions. Thanks.

a stock is still equity in the company, get all the stocks and you own the company.

get all the pajeetshitcoin and you own a massive digital bag.

>>10366275
It isn't, but atm you got a government litterly buying anything on the market just to inflate it (Plunge Protection Team, google it). It is never sustainable and thats why the shit crashes at some point. At some point in the near future people will be standing in line for foodstamps just as has happened times again in the past because the stock market crashed. Humans will be humans, not much to change about their nature. It will just keep going on and on untill society itself ceases to exist.

>The stock market crash of 1929 is nothing unique or special, it is something that happens about every 25-30 years, because that is the lenght of financial memory. Its about the length of time for a new set of suckers to come in and imagine they have a wonderful fix on the future.

>>10365377
A basic finances book will teach you all you need to know about assets value

>>10366321
The stock market is also a way of distributing risk, instead of a single person risking their entire fortune to start a business you can have 10,000 people just pitch a small amount so nobody loses everything if it fails

>>10365377
>implying warren buffett is a meme

>>10365591
VHY.AX

>>10365703
He doesn't know that Australia has a thing called franking credits

>>10366711
hehe thoughts on capitalism?

>>10366711
how much do you have invested that you can survive off the dividends alone?

>>10366910
About 400k which gives a passive income of around 30k which allows me to lIve comfortably in SEA.

>>10366974
This is my goal. Only problem is if theres a crash and you have to go back and get a mcjob

>>10366974
How nice of place can you get if your overall budget is ~$2-2.5k/month?